GNOME 50 without X11 and Future of Zorin OS

Chat about Zorin
21

The most Stuff, I already know but the Pipewire Thing and that it will come as Snap Package is new for me. When removing Snap, this could be problematic. There would be to see how to compensate that.

The whole E-Waste Thing is in my Opinion a bit high-cooked. I mean, when Ubuntu doesn't fit, You can use something like MX Linux. Yes, You have to switch the OS and that can be annoying, no Question. But You are not chained to Ubuntu.

The Gnome 50 Xorg Thing ... Yeah, that isn't good. But we have to see how the Wayland Implementation will be.

The Kernel Thing is an Argument indeed. I find that a bit difficult, too. I mean, it is an LTS Release. So, I would expect a stable Kernel.

The Asterisk Thing, I wouldn't be too concerned. I can understand the Point but I think then You could disable it.

The uutils Thing ... I'm not a big Fan of it, too. and when it doesn't have the same full Functions, it is simply not ready.

22

Wayland will not be finish, they said it will be but 5 years ago, and this year they find how to manage windows on the desktop, I'm afraid when I read this kind of news...

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23

As far as I understand it, this is about restoring Window Positions. So, they are not simply gone and You have to open them all again and position them. If I remember correctly the Protocol for it already exists but it take several Years to implement it officially.

24

As far I has know the question is, does Wayland work for every computer no matter what hardware or software ?
The answer is no, and this forum know it, how many time we suggested to switch to X11 ?
Some of us can manage things, but imagine how this forum will become a war zone with wayland only ?

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25

That is the Question. But I wouldn't answer it with a No. I would say: It depends. Which is a bit more diplomatic than a No but still not a positive Answer, hahaha!

That will be an interesting Time. No longer writing ''Try it with switching to X11/Xorg'' followed by the Explanation how to do it ...

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26

I would say "No" because it is accurate, honest and realistic. Saying "it depends" dodges answering, while admitting that it does not work broadly across the diverse available systems.

There is no need for being diplomatic. It is required that Wayland works if it is being forced as the new Display Protocol. That it is being pushed while unready brings a word: "Accountability", not "diplomacy."

We do not answer to Gnome or Xorg.
They answer to us.
And that they dodge that accountability and try to seize control akin to Microsoft means that they should be confronted - not negotiated with.

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27

Unfortunately, they will answer to us less and less. There is money to be made in the success of Linux-on-the-desktop now being achieved. Linux has worked hard to make the desktop increasingly friendly to those looking for a quality appliance that they can intuitively nagivate. And here they come.

"I set grandma up on Zorin, and she's so happy. She doesn't even know it isn't windows." Right, and if she did know, she wouldn't care, and neither will thousands of others of all ages, backgrounds and abilities now coming on board.

Canonical sees this. Discussions are happening, business plans formulated, profit calculated for add-on features, programs adapted to Linux, advertising, etc. "Nice job, enthusiasts. Thanks for the free software."

None of the above means that we shouldn't confront them. We absolutely should, because the Linux ethos is extremely valuable and needs to be preserved. Not only preserved but spread to other areas of our society and economy. But in doing so we should also be realistic about goals and strategy. We need to look ahead just as they are doing. It is GNU/Linux, its legacy, its people, and its philosophy which we need to foster. That is very much worth fighting for.

28

If there is money and not us- Who?

I think we all know that grandmas that are not even aware it is not Windows OS... Would be a very rare user and certainly not representative of average.

Anyone thinking that is representative is either misleading with excuses or looking through extreme perception bias.

29

A portion of "us" perhaps. Those who don't mind so much what is happening. Those who may see it as evolution rather than betrayal. Those who have been co-opted?

I don't mean so much that they wouldn't know, but that they wouldn't care. As long as they could do their surfing and emailing, etc. Same car - new engine...

30

I think your viewpoint here buys into the rather erroneous claim that users don't know and don't care.
This is an often made claim that lacks evidence or support.

The evidence and support bolsters just the opposite - The majority of GnuLinux users and Migrants do care and that is the entire reason that they are here. If they did not care at all, they would remain on Windows OS.
And... if someones grandma was tricked into using GnuLinux and has no idea it is not Windows; that is an outlier.

This makes that viewpoint, while touted, unrealistic and not representative.

In actual application; Only representative and real numbers matter. Claims have no meaning.

31

You encourage me. I hope you are right and I am mistaken. Please understand however that I am not saying "users" don't care. That is far too broad a category. Some users may not care, perhaps especially those coming over from Windows and Mac at the release of 18 and the end of Win 10. (And I don't mean "grandmas" here - that was an unfortunate illustration). Those frustrated with Windows who just want an appliance with all the advantages that Linux has and none of the cruft Windows has. For Zorin, for example, how many migrants may not even consult this forum, especially if the software "just works" for them. They won't be aware of the calcification of Gnome, the reduction of options, the non-communication from the developers, etc. etc. They can't care if they aren't aware. I wish there was a way to find out the number of actual users of Zorin there are out there - not just how many downloads there were. I wish we could find evidence of how many happy users there are out there, those from whom we may never hear from on the boards.

32

I am going to go out on a limb.

I know, from living life, that I am taught untrue things. This is reinforced, by many forms of media, from Movies to magazines, to articles, to reports.
I will pick safe examples for this Forum:

Beautiful Women scream as damsels in distress and need saving by the average looking male hero lead. Saving said damsel results in wooing said damsel = love = Happy Ever After.

Ever Wonder how Kim Catrall's character managed her truck driving Jack Burton Hero? Maybe she got in the kitchen and made him a sandwich.

Hard Work is the true path to success. At seven and a quarter per hour and you better perform. Retirement plan? Your problem, figure it out (Good luck.)

I see the same articles that you do. I see the same claims. I see "It's FOSS" promoting the True Facts™ that the Medicine Tastes Good.
It stinks of desperation.

Some people read what was on the internet and accept it as True™ and repeat it elsewhere.

But here is the clincher... Short term, this might work a little bit. It might help some ambitious... not so hard worker... achieve a short term goal.
But, let's say I spread the True Fact™ that automotive engines consist of a rotary wheel with a squirrel inside.
For a while... I might make some money selling peanuts to suckers.

But in the end... reality will win. It Always Does.
And when engines roll into shops chock full of peanuts and out of gas, the few that fell for it will never admit... that they were had. They will get quiet.
And wait for the next lie to jump on.

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33

Wish I could buy you a beer. :slight_smile:

So if I read your parable correctly, Canonical and company may have some success for awhile, but in the end, reality will kick in, and those that fell for the "medicine" will quietly move on to the next shiny thing...

(I'm going to watch "Big Trouble" again...been too long.)

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34

''diplomatic'' wasn't the best Word Choice I guess.

My Point is this:

Does Wayland work for everybody? No.
Does Wayland not work for everybody? No.

I mean it is clear that Wayland doesn't work for everybody. Would it do, we wouldn't suggest besides disabling Secure Boot and Fast to try it with switching to Xorg as often as we do.

But: That doesn't mean that You can't have a decent Wayland Experience. It depends on the Circumstances. And this ''It depends on the Circumstances'' is the Point. It is clearly not a Yes. But it isn't an entire No. But because it isn't a clear Yes, it isn't a positive Answer.

It would be cool when we could say here: ''Use Wayland or Xorg. It doesn't matter. Both work good.'' But we can't say that because that isn't the Case. There are a couple of Factors (=Circumstances) that can bring a good, okay-ish or bad Wayland Experience.

So, that is the Reason why I wrote ''It depends''.

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35

Wayland break the spirit of linux, versatility and reliability, it's not from me it's from Linus :wink:

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36

Well it is nice to see that PCLOS Debian has adopted XLibre to replace X11 (xorg) on all "bookworm" and "trixie" isos.

37

OK..correct me if i missed something.. but from what i saw awhile back there was going to be an XWayland as a replacement to X11 did i miss read or was this a bad thing?. i know they erased most of the x11 fork maybe it was to create this XWayland instead?

38

No, XWayland is a Compatibility Layer in Wayland to make Programs run that don't have a Wayland Support.

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39

For "every computer" it must be true that the answer is No.
You would have to ask a different question to change that No to a Yes.
i.e. does Wayland work for some computers?
I would not even say most computers.

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40

I speak English, every day. I have since I was a child. But English is a strange language.
With many roots. A lot of words that are very similar but subtly different. A lot of words that mean the exact same thing as other words.
English is messy. Inconsistent.
It is a hard language even for an expert. I have no idea how you manage more than one language, much less one of them being the terror that English is.

In testing, one of the final actions is a "sanity check." What a sanity check does is ensure that your steps during testing stayed consistent and that your results have merit, before you submit your final report.
I have found that a person does not need to limit performing these checks to one environment.

The initial statement was "Work on all hardware." That it depends is the reason why the answer is "No."

So, I say that chocolate cheezwhiz snorting space dragons are influencing whether Wayland performs up to par.

The trouble with words is that they can break patterns and be inconsistent. Doing a sanity check:

  • My statement above does not match previous statements I have made about Wayland.
  • It also does not match the body of evidence and available data about how Wayland works.

On the face of it - the sentence looks like a clear absurdity. But they are only words and they must follow the rules like any other words. That these particular ones are absurd only means you are more likely to recognize them right away.
Choosing less absurd words; even if equally false... Can make it much harder to recognize their lack of merit.

So let's do more sanity checking.
Wayland is unready for prime time. The available data we all have access to outlines clearly the Roadmap for Wayland and what needs fixing or patching. Since this comes from the developers themselves; acknowledgement that Wayland is not fully working and incomplete; we accept its sanity.
Therefor, Wayland was released Before Ready.

The ZorinGroup repeatedly stated that they adhere to a strict "Release When Ready" policy. This is in response to questions about Zorin OS release Cycles.
Was 18 ready? Or was it fit to the closure of Windows OS Support?
Both 17 and 18 were released with Wayland as the default, even though it is known unready.
If I step back from 'the words' about dragons and gnomes and look at the pattern, I see an inconsistency in the data.

Let's change the question.
"Does X11 (Xorg) Work on all hardware and software?"
The answer should be "Yes."
It used to be. It no longer is.
Now, it is, "X11 works on all hardware. It works consistently and reliably on all desktop environments and software... Except Gnome."

If we look at this pattern instead of words on blog pages and in popular articles, we see that there is clarity in this pattern. It is steady and repeatable.
We can ignore an author that uses better words than "a chocolate cheezwhiz snorting space dragon," because the pattern speaks more accurately.

And these patterns raise hard questions about Gnome 50, the direction of Zorin OS and ZorinGroup Release policy and its future.

An honest one works just as good.

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