GNOME fails with 'Failed to setup: No GPUs with outputs found' (Ryzen 5 PRO 2400G Vega 11, amdgpu)

arakan94 · December 8, 2025, 10:51am

This one has me quite confused - when running from live USB, all went fine. The fresh install then booted successfully once, then apparently failed to initialize GPU several times, then worked OK once (managed to grab some logs).

Hardware Information:

Hardware Model: HP HP EliteDesk 705 G4 SFF
Memory: 16.0 GiB
Processor: AMD Ryzen™ 5 PRO 2400G with Radeon™ Vega Graphics × 8
Graphics: AMD Radeon™ Vega 11 Graphics
Disk Capacity: 256.1 GB

Software Information:

Firmware Version: Q16 Ver. 02.24.01
OS Name: Zorin OS 18 Core
OS Build: (null)
OS Type: 64-bit
Windowing System: Wayland
Kernel Version: Linux 6.14.0-36-generic

The PC only has DisplayPort outputs - I've tried both, on different monitors with different cables. Failed boot ends with blank black screen and it's not even possible to switch to tty using the Ctrl+Alt+Fnum.

// kernel (interesting parts)
pro 06 23:06:38 milnov-pc kernel: [drm] amdgpu kernel modesetting enabled.
...
(4 times) pro 06 23:06:39 milnov-pc kernel: amdgpu 0000:0a:00.0: [drm] *ERROR* Failed to create link encoder!
...
pro 06 23:06:39 milnov-pc kernel: kfd kfd: amdgpu: added device 1002:15dd
pro 06 23:06:39 milnov-pc kernel: amdgpu 0000:0a:00.0: amdgpu: SE 1, SH per SE 1, CU per SH 11, active_cu_number 11
pro 06 23:06:39 milnov-pc kernel: amdgpu 0000:0a:00.0: amdgpu: ring gfx uses VM inv eng 0 on hub 0
pro 06 23:06:39 milnov-pc kernel: amdgpu 0000:0a:00.0: amdgpu: ring comp_1.0.0 uses VM inv eng 1 on hub 0
...
pro 06 23:06:39 milnov-pc kernel: amdgpu: pp_dpm_get_sclk_od was not implemented.
pro 06 23:06:39 milnov-pc kernel: amdgpu: pp_dpm_get_mclk_od was not implemented.
pro 06 23:06:39 milnov-pc kernel: amdgpu 0000:0a:00.0: amdgpu: Runtime PM not available
pro 06 23:06:39 milnov-pc kernel: amdgpu 0000:0a:00.0: [drm] Registered 4 planes with drm panic
pro 06 23:06:39 milnov-pc kernel: [drm] Initialized amdgpu 3.61.0 for 0000:0a:00.0 on minor 1

// GNOME bit
pro 06 23:06:42 milnov-pc systemd[1066]: Started gnome-session-manager@zorin.service - GNOME Session Manager (session: zorin).
pro 06 23:06:42 milnov-pc systemd[1066]: Reached target gnome-session-manager.target - GNOME Session Manager is ready.
pro 06 23:06:42 milnov-pc systemd[1066]: Starting org.gnome.Shell@wayland.service - GNOME Shell on Wayland...
pro 06 23:06:42 milnov-pc systemd[1066]: org.gnome.Shell@x11.service - GNOME Shell on X11 was skipped because of an unmet condition check (ConditionEnvironment=XDG_SESSION_TYPE=x11).
pro 06 23:06:42 milnov-pc gnome-session[1193]: gnome-session-binary[1193]: GnomeDesktop-WARNING: Could not create transient scope for PID 1223: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.UnixProcessIdUnknown: Failed to set unit properties: No such process
pro 06 23:06:42 milnov-pc gnome-session-binary[1193]: GnomeDesktop-WARNING: Could not create transient scope for PID 1223: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.UnixProcessIdUnknown: Failed to set unit properties: No such process
pro 06 23:06:42 milnov-pc systemd[1066]: Started app-gnome-at\x2dspi\x2ddbus\x2dbus-1226.scope - Application launched by gnome-session-binary.
pro 06 23:06:42 milnov-pc gnome-shell[1224]: Running GNOME Shell (using mutter 46.2) as a Wayland display server
pro 06 23:06:42 milnov-pc gnome-shell[1224]: Made thread 'KMS thread' realtime scheduled
pro 06 23:06:42 milnov-pc gnome-shell[1224]: Device '/dev/dri/card1' prefers shadow buffer
pro 06 23:06:42 milnov-pc gnome-shell[1224]: Added device '/dev/dri/card1' (amdgpu) using atomic mode setting.
pro 06 23:06:42 milnov-pc gnome-shell[1224]: Failed to setup: No GPUs with outputs found
pro 06 23:06:42 milnov-pc systemd[1066]: org.gnome.Shell@wayland.service: Failed with result 'protocol'.
pro 06 23:06:42 milnov-pc systemd[1066]: Failed to start org.gnome.Shell@wayland.service - GNOME Shell on Wayland.

Then it keeps trying, but failing with same error.

Good boot doesn't have this:
pro 06 23:06:39 milnov-pc kernel: amdgpu 0000:0a:00.0: [drm] *ERROR* Failed to create link encoder!

And ends differently (especially the fb part):

pro 06 23:08:59 milnov-pc kernel: amdgpu: pp_dpm_get_sclk_od was not implemented.
pro 06 23:08:59 milnov-pc kernel: amdgpu: pp_dpm_get_mclk_od was not implemented.
pro 06 23:08:59 milnov-pc kernel: amdgpu 0000:0a:00.0: amdgpu: Runtime PM not available
pro 06 23:08:59 milnov-pc kernel: amdgpu 0000:0a:00.0: [drm] Registered 4 planes with drm panic
pro 06 23:08:59 milnov-pc kernel: [drm] Initialized amdgpu 3.61.0 for 0000:0a:00.0 on minor 1
pro 06 23:08:59 milnov-pc kernel: fbcon: amdgpudrmfb (fb0) is primary device
pro 06 23:08:59 milnov-pc kernel: fbcon: Deferring console take-over
pro 06 23:08:59 milnov-pc kernel: amdgpu 0000:0a:00.0: [drm] fb0: amdgpudrmfb frame buffer device

I also have lshw, lsmod, lspci and modinfo outputs but there doesn't seem to be a way to upload text files here.. Should I use 3rd party service or copy them in code block?
I'll be happy for any advice!

Ponce-De-Leon · December 8, 2025, 11:14am

Welcome to the Forum!

You can copy it here like the other Log Stuff that You have posted.

To Your Issue:

Is Your Machine a Laptop or a Desktop-PC?
Are Secure Boot and Fast Boot in BIOS disabled?
If Windows is installed: Is Fast Start-Up in Windows disabled?
Is Your BIOS in UEFI or Legacy Mode?
What Tool did You use the create the bootable USB Stick?

arakan94 · December 8, 2025, 12:00pm

Desktop PC
both disabled
no Windows
UEFI (though Legacy boot support is on)
Ventoy (just copied ISO)

I am trying to paste the logs, but it shows this error... What does that mean?

Forpli · December 8, 2025, 12:19pm

When these words are in the text, you can't post it.

arakan94 · December 8, 2025, 12:23pm

Huh, okay - had no idea it could mean something other than Compute Units.. I found it in output from modinfo.

Still, there seems to be limit of 32k characters, so posting full logs like this doesn't seem feasible anyway..

inxi -F

System:
  Host: milnov-pc Kernel: 6.14.0-36-generic arch: x86_64 bits: 64
  Desktop: GNOME v: 46.0 Distro: Zorin OS 18 noble
Machine:
  Type: Desktop System: HP product: HP EliteDesk 705 G4 SFF v: SBKPF
    serial: CZC9457HL9
  Mobo: HP model: 83E8 v: KBC Version 07.D4.00 serial: PGUDC0GMVCN5XX
    UEFI: HP v: Q16 Ver. 02.24.01 date: 09/26/2024
CPU:
  Info: quad core model: AMD Ryzen 5 PRO 2400G with Radeon Vega Graphics
    bits: 64 type: MT MCP cache: L2: 2 MiB
  Speed (MHz): avg: 3593 min/max: N/A cores: 1: 3593 2: 3593 3: 3593 4: 3593
    5: 3593 6: 3593 7: 3593 8: 3593
Graphics:
  Device-1: AMD Raven Ridge [Radeon Vega Series / Radeon Mobile Series]
    driver: amdgpu v: kernel
  Display: server: X.Org v: 23.2.6 with: Xwayland v: 23.2.6 driver:
    dri: radeonsi gpu: amdgpu resolution: 2560x1440~165Hz
  API: EGL v: 1.5 drivers: radeonsi,swrast
    platforms: gbm,x11,surfaceless,device
  API: OpenGL v: 4.6 compat-v: 4.5 vendor: amd mesa
    v: 25.0.7-0ubuntu0.24.04.2 renderer: AMD Radeon Vega 11 Graphics (radeonsi
    raven ACO DRM 3.61 6.14.0-36-generic)
Audio:
  Device-1: AMD Raven/Raven2/Fenghuang HDMI/DP Audio driver: snd_hda_intel
  Device-2: AMD Family 17h/19h HD Audio driver: snd_hda_intel
  API: ALSA v: k6.14.0-36-generic status: kernel-api
Network:
  Device-1: Realtek RTL8111/8168/8211/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet
    driver: r8169
  IF: eno1 state: up speed: 1000 Mbps duplex: full mac: 9c:7b:ef:ba:0e:a4
Drives:
  Local Storage: total: 238.47 GiB used: 10.89 GiB (4.6%)
  ID-1: /dev/nvme0n1 vendor: Western Digital model: PC SN520
    SDAPNUW-256G-1006 size: 238.47 GiB
Partition:
  ID-1: / size: 233.18 GiB used: 10.89 GiB (4.7%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/nvme0n1p2
  ID-2: /boot/efi size: 511 MiB used: 6.1 MiB (1.2%) fs: vfat
    dev: /dev/nvme0n1p1
Swap:
  ID-1: swap-1 type: file size: 2 GiB used: 0 KiB (0.0%) file: /swapfile
Sensors:
  System Temperatures: cpu: 40.8 C mobo: N/A gpu: amdgpu temp: 40.0 C
  Fan Speeds (rpm): N/A
Info:
  Memory: total: 16 GiB note: est. available: 15.06 GiB used: 1.96 GiB (13.0%)
  Processes: 307 Uptime: 9m Shell: Sudo inxi: 3.3.34

lspci

00:00.0 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Raven/Raven2 Root Complex
00:00.2 IOMMU: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Raven/Raven2 IOMMU
00:01.0 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 17h (Models 00h-1fh) PCIe Dummy Host Bridge
00:01.2 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Raven/Raven2 PCIe GPP Bridge [6:0]
00:01.6 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Raven/Raven2 PCIe GPP Bridge [6:0]
00:08.0 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 17h (Models 00h-1fh) PCIe Dummy Host Bridge
00:08.1 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Raven/Raven2 Internal PCIe GPP Bridge 0 to Bus A
00:08.2 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Raven/Raven2 Internal PCIe GPP Bridge 0 to Bus B
00:14.0 SMBus: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] FCH SMBus Controller (rev 61)
00:14.3 ISA bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] FCH LPC Bridge (rev 51)
00:18.0 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Raven/Raven2 Device 24: Function 0
00:18.1 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Raven/Raven2 Device 24: Function 1
00:18.2 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Raven/Raven2 Device 24: Function 2
00:18.3 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Raven/Raven2 Device 24: Function 3
00:18.4 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Raven/Raven2 Device 24: Function 4
00:18.5 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Raven/Raven2 Device 24: Function 5
00:18.6 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Raven/Raven2 Device 24: Function 6
00:18.7 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Raven/Raven2 Device 24: Function 7
01:00.0 USB controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] 300 Series Chipset USB 3.1 xHCI Controller (rev 02)
01:00.1 SATA controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] 300 Series Chipset SATA Controller (rev 02)
01:00.2 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Device 43b2 (rev 02)
02:00.0 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] 300 Series Chipset PCIe Port (rev 02)
02:01.0 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] 300 Series Chipset PCIe Port (rev 02)
02:04.0 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] 300 Series Chipset PCIe Port (rev 02)
02:05.0 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] 300 Series Chipset PCIe Port (rev 02)
02:06.0 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] 300 Series Chipset PCIe Port (rev 02)
02:07.0 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] 300 Series Chipset PCIe Port (rev 02)
05:00.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8111/8168/8211/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet Controller (rev 0e)
05:00.1 Serial controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8111xP UART #1 (rev 0e)
05:00.2 Serial controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8111xP UART #2 (rev 0e)
05:00.3 IPMI Interface: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8111xP IPMI interface (rev 0e)
05:00.4 USB controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL811x EHCI host controller (rev 0e)
09:00.0 Non-Volatile memory controller: Sandisk Corp WD Blue SN500 / PC SN520 x2 M.2 2280 NVMe SSD (rev 01)
0a:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Raven Ridge [Radeon Vega Series / Radeon Vega Mobile Series] (rev d3)
0a:00.1 Audio device: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Raven/Raven2/Fenghuang HDMI/DP Audio Controller
0a:00.2 Encryption controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 17h (Models 10h-1fh) Platform Security Processor
0a:00.3 USB controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Raven USB 3.1
0a:00.4 USB controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Raven USB 3.1
0a:00.6 Audio device: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 17h/19h HD Audio Controller
0b:00.0 SATA controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] FCH SATA Controller [AHCI mode] (rev 61)

Ponce-De-Leon · December 8, 2025, 1:35pm

Did You used the default Settings of Ventoy? Because by default Ventoy uses MBR as Partition Sheme Option. You have to set it in the Ventoy Settings to GPT for Your UEFI BIOS.

Another Point: Did You looked if there might be an Update for Your BIOS?

arakan94 · December 8, 2025, 1:45pm

I have it installed on GPT. It boots correctly sometimes (like 1 in 5 attempts?) - here's screenshot from the machine (currently have it on):

~~Yes, the firmware is~~ latest available version:

02.24.01 Rev.A
31.6 MB
Oct 25, 2024

EDIT: Wait a second - the dates do not match.. Only looked at the version number and ignored the "Rev.A", sorry. Not sure if I can install that easily without Windows though..

EDIT2: Probably shouldn't matter though - only change seems to be vulnerability mitigation and the listed firmware versions (most importantly VBIOS) are same.

Ponce-De-Leon · December 8, 2025, 7:13pm

Hmm ... There is something what irritates me. You wrotere here:

but here stands:

Do You have switched in the Meantime? Could You type in Terminal echo $XDG_SESSION_TYPE and see if Your System runs in Wayland or X11?

arakan94 · December 8, 2025, 8:49pm

That was also curious to me - first one was the output of GNOME Settings "About system" dialog while the other was from inxi. I am not sure why they're different and I haven't touched any settings. Could've pointed that myself to save you the irritation - sorry!

Wayland seems to be correct as also the journalctl snippet reported.

echo $XDG_SESSION_TYPE
wayland

Ponce-De-Leon · December 8, 2025, 9:25pm

Okay, then let's try it with switching to X11/Xorg. Maybe that helps.

To do that, go to the Login Screen. Click there on Your Profile so that the Password Field appears. When it is appeared, You should see a Gear Icon in the bottom right Corner. Click on it and choose the Option ''Zorin Desktop on Xorg'' and then log in.

arakan94 · December 8, 2025, 10:42pm

Similar behavior - sometimes boots, mostly fails. But the logs seem to be more useful. Apparently, there is no /dev/dri/card0 and dev/fb0 suggesting, the amdgpu initialization failed.
I also changed GRUB settings from quite splash to text and enabled SSH server. The video output worked fine (though it seemed to be wrong resolution) up until gdm/xorg, which then failed with:

gdm-x-session[1118]: (II) modesetting: Driver for Modesetting Kernel Drivers: kms
gdm-x-session[1118]: (II) FBDEV: driver for framebuffer: fbdev
gdm-x-session[1118]: (II) VESA: driver for VESA chipsets: vesa
gdm-x-session[1118]: xf86EnableIO: failed to enable I/O ports 0000-03ff (Operation not permitted)
gdm-x-session[1118]: (WW) Falling back to old probe method for modesetting
gdm-x-session[1118]: (EE) open /dev/dri/card0: No such file or directory
gdm-x-session[1118]: (WW) Falling back to old probe method for fbdev
gdm-x-session[1118]: (II) Loading sub module "fbdevhw"
gdm-x-session[1118]: (II) LoadModule: "fbdevhw"
gdm-x-session[1118]: (II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/libfbdevhw.so
gdm-x-session[1118]: (II) Module fbdevhw: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
gdm-x-session[1118]:         compiled for 1.21.1.11, module version = 0.0.2
gdm-x-session[1118]:         ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 25.2
gdm-x-session[1118]: (EE) open /dev/fb0: No such file or directory
gdm-x-session[1118]: (WW) VGA arbiter: cannot open kernel arbiter, no multi-card support
gdm-x-session[1118]: (II) AMDGPU(0): Creating default Display subsection in Screen section
gdm-x-session[1118]:         "Default Screen Section" for depth/fbbpp 24/32
gdm-x-session[1118]: (==) AMDGPU(0): Depth 24, (--) framebuffer bpp 32
gdm-x-session[1118]: (II) AMDGPU(0): Pixel depth = 24 bits stored in 4 bytes (32 bpp pixmaps)
gdm-x-session[1118]: (==) AMDGPU(0): Default visual is TrueColor
gdm-x-session[1118]: (II) Applying OutputClass "AMDgpu" options to /dev/dri/card1
gdm-x-session[1118]: (==) AMDGPU(0): RGB weight 888
gdm-x-session[1118]: (II) AMDGPU(0): Using 8 bits per RGB (8 bit DAC)
gdm-x-session[1118]: (--) AMDGPU(0): Chipset: "AMD Radeon Vega 11 Graphics" (ChipID = 0x15dd)
...
gdm-x-session[1118]: (WW) AMDGPU(0): No outputs definitely connected, trying again...
gdm-x-session[1118]: (WW) AMDGPU(0): Unable to find connected outputs - setting 1024x768 initial framebuffer
gdm-x-session[1118]: (EE) AMDGPU(0): No modes.
gdm-x-session[1118]: (II) UnloadModule: "amdgpu"
gdm-x-session[1118]: (II) UnloadSubModule: "glamoregl"
gdm-x-session[1118]: (II) Unloading glamoregl
gdm-x-session[1118]: (EE) Screen(s) found, but none have a usable configuration.
gdm-x-session[1118]: (EE)
gdm-x-session[1118]: Fatal server error:
gdm-x-session[1118]: (EE) no screens found(EE)
gdm-x-session[1111]: Unable to run X server

Also, I incorrectly described situation before for some reason (brain glitch, I guess.. Sorry!) - there is no cursor and no output at all. Signal is coming (monitor doesn't report no link) but it's all black (like an empty frame buffer).

Ponce-De-Leon · December 9, 2025, 11:24am

Hmm ... Okay, try the Following:

sudo apt reinstall libdrm-amdgpu1 xserver-xorg-video-amdgpu

arakan94 · December 9, 2025, 4:06pm

No change

milos@milnov-pc:~$ sudo apt reinstall libdrm-amdgpu1 xserver-xorg-video-amdgpu
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
The following package was automatically installed and is no longer required:
  apparmor-profiles
Use 'sudo apt autoremove' to remove it.
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 2 reinstalled, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 0 B/90.6 kB of archives.
After this operation, 0 B of additional disk space will be used.
(Reading database ... 298526 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack .../libdrm-amdgpu1_2.4.122-1~ubuntu0.24.04.2_amd64.deb ...
Unpacking libdrm-amdgpu1:amd64 (2.4.122-1~ubuntu0.24.04.2) over (2.4.122-1~ubuntu0.24.04.2) ...
Preparing to unpack .../xserver-xorg-video-amdgpu_23.0.0-1ubuntu0.24.04.1_amd64.deb ...
Unpacking xserver-xorg-video-amdgpu (23.0.0-1ubuntu0.24.04.1) over (23.0.0-1ubuntu0.24.04.1) ...
Setting up libdrm-amdgpu1:amd64 (2.4.122-1~ubuntu0.24.04.2) ...
Setting up xserver-xorg-video-amdgpu (23.0.0-1ubuntu0.24.04.1) ...
Processing triggers for man-db (2.12.0-4build2) ...
Processing triggers for libc-bin (2.39-0ubuntu8.6) ...
milos@milnov-pc:~$ sudo reboot

Aravisian · December 9, 2025, 6:09pm

Are you able to boot to Recovery Menu from Grub Menu, drop to Root Prompt and run

lsmod | grep amdgpu

dmesg | grep -i amdgpu

ls /dev/dri

And relay the output here?

It looks like either the AMD GPU is not initlializing or it cannot recognize the handshake with your monitor. Are you using ThunderBolt?
Or a Display Port adapter?

Ponce-De-Leon · December 9, 2025, 6:13pm

Hmm ... I could suggest a newer Kernel but I don't think that this would help. I have a 3200G and it runs without such an Issue.

Then we should look at a different Side. You wrote above:

So, You don't have an HDMI Port ... how did You connect to Your Monitor? With DisplayPort to DisplayPort or a DisplayPort to HDMI Adapter?

arakan94 · December 9, 2025, 9:08pm

I used DP-DP, but also tried DP-HDMI adapter today with no difference.

But, I probably managed to fix it now - turns out it was caused by the BIOS settings "Enable legacy support and disable secure boot", even when legacy boot options were disabled in boot order. Seems HP does a lot more with their "legacy support" than just pre-UEFI boot - when I disabled it, the boot logo, GRUB and kernel text output resolution changed to correct one and since then, all the boots went well (tried like ten times)!

Ponce-De-Leon · December 9, 2025, 9:10pm

That sounds good. Keep an Eye on it and test for a couple Days and report back please.

arakan94 · December 9, 2025, 9:13pm

Yes, I am able to get to Root prompt - do you want me to change the BIOS setting back and go get that outputs? It might be still worth investigating further but y'all probably have other stuff to do..

Aravisian · December 9, 2025, 9:24pm

I think there is no need now, since you discovered what was prohibiting the GPU to init, which was what those commands were intended to try to suss out.