MOVED: Upgrading Zorin Ultimate & Resultant Discussion

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#11

I can quote Carmar or you can just scroll up: His “bashing” explained his reasons clearly. You cannot claim it was for “no reason.” It is a valid observation and a comparison.
Just as you saying that all OS’s have their fine points and their flaws is a Valid Observation.
My saying that I disagree with those stating that Zorin should allow Upgrading Ultimate to the next release Is Valid. I gave clear and valid reasons why.

So… Calling any of us “fanboys” is a personal attack, not a valid observation. It is a Logical Fallacy. It was not an (“tbh”) honest observation because whether we are or are not fans of Zorin OS has no bearing on the Validity of the statements that we made.
Have I explained this in a way that helps you to understand?
This forum should be free, as in freedom, as a place to encourage thought, question assumptions and for the exchange of Ideas. Disagreement is a great thing as it Tests Ideas. But personal attacks test patience.
Please Think About This.

Cederick, I am by no means wealthy. I will plainly state that the only reason I never bought Ultimate is because I could not afford it. The same as you describe, I could, technically, spend the money, but if I did, it is money that may not go to a higher priority. In order to make up for that and give back for having been given an OS FOR FREE by the Zorin Team, I have spent the past year attempting to help others troubleshoot their OS. That- is a sense of honor. Which some may claim is worth something in itself.

But consider this: Zorin Ultimate is Not A Necessity. Affordability of Ultimate is not based on Need, but on Desire. Which reduces how much any of us are willing to spend on it.If it is a need, we are willing to Spend More because we have to. We won’t be happy about it. But Zorin Ultimate is a Want, not a need.
You and I Both Do Get Zorin for FREE. Your Need and My Need is fulfilled- without spending any money at all.
Whereas Windows makes it a Need- One that Costs and comes with bloat- which Carmar justly made the comparison of- And why anyone demanding Ultimate for Free is nonsense.
So, again, all of our finances are Not Relevant because Zorin OS is FREE.
Ultimate is not a Need.
I will remind you that you called us “fanboys” for this.

And lastly…

I disagree again.
It is not spreading misinformation, nor is it not factual for Carmar to state Windows Costs More.

  • It is factual that Windows Does Cost More.

  • It is factual that Windows has Higher Resource Consumption. This is not opionion, this is well established Fact. Microsoft knows it, too.

  • Installation is limited in the number of machines- This is factual information.

  • It is factual that Windows is easily compromised. It’s a common topic of the need for heavy security on Windows and anti-virus as opposed to Linux. How can you claim this is misinformation?

  • Windows is much harder to troubleshoot. Linux has a Terminal Emulator interface which tells you if packages or dependencies are missing or what command to enter much of the time. Whereas with Windows you just get an obscure error like “This program has performed an illegal operation” or “error 0x0003x010”.
    How do you troubleshoot that? I would somewhat agree with you that this may fall under “opinion” but I would NOT refer to it as spreading misinformation.

Now, in this post, I pretty much confronted everything you have said and told you that I think you are wrong every step of the way. I am sorry for that- But your Claims needed confrontation because… I found them wrong every step of the way and I prefer to confront the spreading of misinformation.

#12

Well I never said anything against these things in particular I was just talking about:

  1. Depends on the hardware.
  2. Depends on your past experience with said OS.
  3. Depends on what you use your ststem for and how you do it. Just pasting things in the terminal without knowing what you do has the same effect as downloading “somesong.exe”.

And stating oppinons as facts is in fact spreading misinformation since you state an opinion as a fact.

I never said that Ultimate is a must or anything I just said it is even less attractive for me as a product since I could not justify the purchase for myself. That’s all and now this turned into me being pressured to somewhat say something about my finfacial situation and so on just by your claims of implications since you see some agression in that statement when there is none at all.

And it’s fine with me that you do what you do to support something you really like but I don’t have to do the same and you don’t have to justify your choice in what you’re doing. It just makes you seem less confident with said choice.

That in fact is wrong since i never adressed you and was only talking about the tone in @carmar reply by attacking another product that never got mentioned. And the only reason for that could be to weaken my statement or to make me angry in some what because it has nothing to do with the actual conversation on here.

This should not need another comment after what i stated before. But I will happily repeat myself if needed. But tl;dr it was no attack not even a personal one since I said that:

So my comment is invalid if it wasn’t the case. But @carmar acutally confirmed it by this reply:

So yeah… No futher comment needed on that one.

No need for a confirmation to help my self-esteem but thanks anyways.

It had nothing to do with anything I said. It was a comment of something he “implied” by me saying that I don’t feel justified to spend the current price on Zorin Ultimate. So it was blind bashing and not vaild.

Edit: @Aravisian please stop implying more thing into what I say that even I could do to just tell me that “It is not my fault for being an idiot or feeling bad about something it’s society”. It is pointless, annoying, hurtful (since you treat me as if I was dumb) and it is also something I want to never ever see in my inbox again. Let alone any message from you since it is just a toxic and hurtful behaviour.

You also completly ignore 90% of what I said in my reply by hyperfocusing on that point. ANd yes it is not ok from you to pressure me into revelaing personal information so i don’t look bad by your implications. That is 100% not ok and you can’t help/improve your conscience about that by trying to justify your actions. Nothing can justify this but I guess you rather write more and longert text to deal with it in that way instead of just giving a simple apology.

#13

It was a personal attack for the reasons that I politely explained to you:
Claiming any of us “fanboys” for making comparisons or Valid Observations or for disagreeing with your statements is Not Valid -it is Ad hominem. You are not attacking the Idea- You are attacking the Character of the person.

I did not ignore your reply- I quoted each part and pointed out the flaws in them, just as I am doing now.
The rest of your post is not worth replying to. If my being courteous and trying to help you to understand other viewpoints is “toxic and Hurtful” Then I will do this, Instead;

This is an Official Moderator Warning:
Stop the Ad Hominem Personal Attacks. You cannot Justify them, nor claim that your target “proved” them for you, nor explain it away by claiming I was hurtful to you. This argument ends Now.
You will behave as set by the Guidelines of the forum or you will not be welcome here.
Clear.

1 Like
#14

Aravisian, I find it unusally strange that you are a moderator but clearly wanted to engage in an arguement with Cederick. I would rather you represent this forum in a more professional manner.

1 Like
#15

Privacy, I disagree with your perception, however - I will support your opinion that you can express to the administrators.
The reason I disagree with you is this:
Cederick used an Ad hom argument- which was addressed. I then tried on several posts to explain this to Cederick- this is not the same thing as “wanting to engage in an argument.” It is being argued with when you explain something to a person.
If you try to explain something to a person that repeatedly rejects it- Well…
I then tried a polite and friendly Private message- and was told that such was “toxic.”
When my effort to reach a person is spun into such a thing, it becomes clear that I cannot reason with the person- At which point I closed the argument down entirely.
Professionalism does not mean taking abuse. It does not mean closing something down without trying to explain things first, or correct the actions or engage without being authoritative. I engaged as a member, first.

If you disagree, it may be perfectly valid and please send a PM to Azorin or Zorink and ask your concerns to be addressed. I am not perfect and as all humans, I am susceptible to bias.

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#16

I have moved the Off-Topic argument to here. Delayed due to pending observations.

In hindsight and reading over it again, I can reach a simple conclusion:

If I had worded this differently, say as this:

Remember to attack the idea, not the person

Right at the outset, it may have made a difference to the outcome.
I have moved this to “Feedback” as it qualifies as feedback for the board.
Member Privacy was quite right to publicly address concerns. Public and Clear accountability is crucial. Having it in PM or behind closed doors breeds corruption and favoritism.
As I could justify based on what I can point out was wrong in another person, it becomes sadly easy to overlook where I was wrong.
Accountability requires a fair and balanced viewing. I think arguing over topics in spirited debate is Great for Forums of all ages and topics. It allows us to explore ideas and to question assumptions. To broaden our horizons and expand our thinking. But we always must remember to test our ideas, not eachothers patience. This applies to me as much as anyone and I am not above it.
My apologies to all for the disruption. I spoke from how I believe, but I can learn to speak more clearly and express and test ideas in a way to elicit a better reaction.

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#17

Seriously? Paying the people who create the software you’re using is a reason not to buy something? Software developer / engineer is the only profession in the world where people think this mindset is ok or appropriate.

I find it extremely insulting. Check your entitlement. Software doesn’t grow on trees, and is one of the most difficult things to do right. Especially as it comes to low level and operating systems.

#18

It’s perfectly fine for anyone to use the free editions of Zorin OS (Core, Lite, and Education) if they can’t afford the Ultimate edition, or if they otherwise don’t want to. Zorin OS Ultimate is not prefectly suited for everyone, just like any product.

We created the free editions to help spread Zorin OS to as many people as possible and we’re happy to see more people using Zorin OS, regardless of whether they paid or not :smiley:

Of course, we greatly appreciate when someone purchases a copy of Zorin OS Ultimate, as it helps to support the project and fund the development. However, there’s nothing wrong or entitled about not paying and using a free edition.

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#19

My reason just was it wouldn’t pay out for me personaly which dosn’t make me an entiteld human being. It is just not something that I can financially justify because even I need too eat food and supporting Zorin while having to pay for every new version makes it less viable to save up for buying the non-free versions once. But thanks for the personal attack. It is really “appreciated” and makes me not feel like I’m just a “poor person that deserves hate from random people because he can’t afford and justify this kind of monetary support to something he finds kinda neat but doesn’t really use since he simply hasn’t the money to go ultimate.”

As I said over and over and over and over. These are personal reasons for me only but sorry for putting my thoughts into words. I should really feel ahamed for contributing in a discussion online by showing that I want to support something but lack the financial background to do so. And double sorry for being a non native speaker but still having my words torn into shreds because I’m something you so clearly wanted to and did criticise.

Edit:

Also I never ever said this or ment to express this and I’m confused as of where do you get this expression from.

#20

@Cederick

It’s completely understandable that you may not have the ability to financially support Zorin OS. Many people are in the same situation as you, and that’s okay. This is why a free option exists.

That said, money is not the only way you can support a platform or project. If you find value in Zorin OS and want to contribute, the most valuable commodity you have is your time. By investing your time, you can support Zorin in ways that align with your strengths.

There are many examples of this. First, if you are a power-user, you can answer support questions on this forum. Also, if you are a developer, you can help fix bugs or write features or plugins that enhance the user experience. If you don’t have these skills, you can assist with documentation or translations (especially if English is your second language), or you can even evangelize Zorin to other users. And finally, you can always discover different ways to contribute; you are only limited by your imagination.

Anyway, I’m not sure if any of this helps, but just know that anything you can give back to the community is valuable and appreciated.

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#21

If you are feeling attacked, this must be addressed.
But please remember that Counter-Attacking is just as unproductive.

It is our duty to ensure a fight does not happen; that the forum is a safe place where contributors can feel comfortable to ask questions, express ideas and opinions and discuss differences.

This is very important. Ideas must be tested for Merit and for Validity. Otherwise, how else can we build a working model to understand the world and how to work the world?

In such: clear definitions are necessary. A Personal or Ad Hominem Attack is performed when a person attempts to invalidate an idea by instead, claiming that something else is wrong with the persons. Fictitious example:
“You cannot understand me because you are stubborn!”
The fallacy here in this example is that ‘stubbornness’ of the other person may well not be the cause of misunderstanding. It attacks their character but does not necessarily address a productive way of understanding. It makes the other person defensive, instead of open.
Making an attack on an Idea, and opinion or an attitude is different. To say that someones words lack merit, that their idea is silly, etc… These are all acceptable because the person is not being attacked, the idea is. And ideas should be vigorously tested. It is how we learn which ideas have merit and are strong and worthwhile and which are not. It is how we learn.

Some of the reasons you expressed above are valid for many of us. And I pointed this out much earlier that it applies to many of us. Singling yourself out does not change this.
However… The context remains important and I will quote you directly:

Here, you state that not buying Zorin Ultimate is reasoned because you cannot Upgrade Ultimate to the Next Release. You repeatedly reinforce this by stating that it will be “obsolete” quickly and by saying that “each new release cannot be bought.” Each of these are valid ideas individually. However, taken all together, it becomes: “I would be willing to buy Ultimate Once, if I was able to upgrade that to each successive release without having to pay again.” It is accurate to find that kind of Idea to be Entitled.

At this point, you can say that is not what you meant and that would be valid.
But you cannot say that I am motivated or that 2disbetter is motivated to attack you for personal reasons.
These Personal Accusations are no better than Personal Attacks.
They are unproductive and they heavily increase the likelihood of Anger and Fighting.

Because when Both Parties are feeling insulted, then spirited debate has broken down.

Please remember to Step Back from a thread for a moment to gather yourself when you feel the emotion or defensiveness surge. Use that moment to decide the most productive and healthy way to address your disagreements. It is a good habit to have for life and relationships and threads on the net, alike.

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#22

In context of my financial situation. You just ripped it out of context again.
That’s what I’m complaining about for over 4 posts now. Can’t people just let a presonal reason treat as a personal reason and not view it like I trie to throw shade on Zorin or want to enforce a guidline to follow or something?

See:

This is just absurd that I have to repeat it over and over and still get these responses and being bashed and shamed because people probably just gloss over what I’m saying and instantly reply in a really agressive or at least angry/hurtful way.

I probably won’t comment on any future post or anything similar in the future since this is just really toxic and mean in a lot of ways at least for me it is.

#23

I can understand both sides of this.
You asked how it was anyone could have understood a meaning from what you said. So, I showed you what you said that caused that. At that point, we both needed to backtrack to those words. Claiming after doing so, that I am taking your words out of context is in contradiction to what we just discussed.
In the same manner in which you accused me of “treating you like you are dumb” when I needed to explain to you how calling members of the board “fanboys” for posting a legitimate reason to support Zorin is an Ad Hominem attack across four posts. This cannot continue.
A personal reason not to buy something is valid - which has been repeatedly recognized and glossed over by you.
However, it was raised by you before anyone said anything; yet you later claimed that I forced you into it. This is inappropriate.
It makes it impossible to explain anything. I truly hope in future you will think about this.

Cederick, I certainly can understand how you feel, but I do not believe you can justify how you are choosing to act based on how you feel.

Remember: No one is granted the Right to go through life unoffended. As people, we all will occasionally offend somebody at some point, intentionally or not. What really matters is how we treat each other afterward. How willing we are to forgive and move forward.

In which case, it becomes necessary.
I moved the thread to allow Feedback on the above. But not to engage in further arguing. Whatever the source of Toxicity, there is an action that we can all assuredly agree on to halt it.
This thread is closed.

However, the concept remains free and open: All members should feel free to start a thread in this section to voice concerns over how they are treated. As long as that privilege is not abused, it can be very helpful.

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#28

@Cederick if you genuinely cannot afford the Ultimate version that is fine. There is nothing wrong with that. Your one sentence suggesting that Ultimate or paying for Zorin OS is a reason not to buy it, doesn’t express a lot. Perhaps if you don’t wish for people to get offensive, then when you say something offensive, you should flesh out your reasoning. I know that I personally would have not have responded the way I did, had you done so.

Your back and forth here, seems to mean, you know what you are doing, and you enjoy the confrontation.

I apologize if you felt personally insulted. That is what you inferred and not what I said.

Have a great day notwithstanding!

#29

I had closed this thread, but Swarfendor had re-opened it in order to do a moderator action; I was not aware it was not re-closed.
Due to this- More comments have been made.
For the time being, Leaving the Thread Open on the grounds that closing it now could appear as though one person is being blocked from posting while other members get “the final word.” A bit of Luck.

However, ANY posts that accuse, use Ad Hom arguments or instigate arguing will be dealt with Swiftly and Sharply. At this point, everyone is Fully Aware of the nature of this discussion and fully aware that more fighting will not be tolerated.

#30

I don’t. I just really dislike being treated in a way that makes me actually really sad for no reason that I can really understand because… Well you already know why I feel like that. And I was raised in a way that I had to stand up for myself if I think something that happens is not something that i deserve. (private stuff and so on)