People who come from Windows, what pushed you into finally switching to linux?

[SteveThackery]

@zenzen

@SteveThackery

whoever complains about having to type in their password for Windows' UAC will find they must do the same, about as often, with Linux.

That is by design, and one of the reasons Linux is more secure. If you recall, in earlier versions of Windows all you had to do is click "Ok" when trying to install something.

We're talking about current versions of Windows, so I'm not sure why it makes Linux more secure. As secure (in this respect), surely?

@zenzen

@SteveThackery

Whoever claims Linux rarely needs rebooting after an update are, again, wrong.

My experience tells me otherwise, especially on servers. Do you have anything to back this claim?

Let me emphasise that I have no experience whatsoever of Linux as a server OS. I'm not an IT guy, just a normal user. But I'm pretty sure (though I can't provide hard evidence) that I've had to reboot Zorin a couple of times after big updates (admittedly probably in the hours and days after installation).

@zenzen

@SteveThackery

It's all too obvious that it is hobby-ware, developed by hyper-intelligent geeks who write fantastic code but who have no access to any usability labs, and who can't understand why their thrown-together UI isn't immediately obvious and intuitive to "normal" users.

Without taking any validity away from your argument, this actually makes perfect sense. Linux has been mostly developed for server environments where skilled, qualified workers were needed.

In my opinion, sacrificing functionality in the name of aesthetics is a catastrophic mistake.

Good UI design does not automatically mean sacrificing functionality for aesthetics. And you make my point for me: Linux is mostly developed for server environment, which is why it's not surprising it's a bit kludgy as a desktop OS. I'm sure you would argue that the exact opposite applies to Windows; it is (or was) primarily a desktop OS, which is why it is (was) a bit kludgy as a server OS.

Seriously, I admire Linux as a server OS, an opinion based on extensive reading over decades. But I don't find it that "smooth" as a desktop OS.

@zenzen

The metro interface from Windows 8 or the Ribbon framework are excellent examples of such catastrophic failure.

Well, here I must profoundly disagree. Metro was a breath of fresh air which broke free from the tired old icons/windows/menus/pointer model, as subset of which still dogs ChromeOS and Android to this very day. Have you got an Android phone? It's like using something dating back to the last century (because that's exactly what it is). Metro, though, was a mobile user interface, and in my opinion worked great on a touch-based computer. As I said earlier, it's a nightmare on a desktop PC, which was my original reason for trying Zorin.

As for the ribbon, well, if you prefer to resist change then you could, I suppose, argue for retaining deeply nested menus and dozens of almost illegible "tools" on multiple toolbars, which may (or may not) even be visible. I think the ribbon does a brilliant job of exposing far more of the available functionality to the user. So no, I disagree - menus and toolbars had comprehensively run out of steam with applications with such deep and wide functionality as the Office suite.

[Aravisian]

@SteveThackery

But I'm pretty sure (though I can't provide hard evidence) that I've had to reboot Zorin a couple of times after big updates (admittedly probably in the hours and days after installation).

You are not required to immediately reboot. But yes, some drivers must be initialized (reboot) in order to take effect. Nvidia, the kernel, etc.
That is just computing and it is true on phones, computers, machinery... Even satellites must be rebooted sometimes.

@SteveThackery

As for the ribbon, well, if you prefer to resist change then you could, I suppose, argue for retaining deeply nested menus and dozens of almost illegible "tools" on multiple toolbars, which may (or may not) even be visible. I think the ribbon does a brilliant job of exposing far more of the available functionality to the user. So no, I disagree - menus and toolbars had comprehensively run out of steam with applications with such deep and wide functionality as the Office suite.

I prefer my tools to be laid out and accessible. Not hidden someplace where I need to go on a scavenger hunt of the OS to find them.
It bothers me to have my tools inside of a hamburger. There should be cheese there.

[SteveThackery]

@Aravisian

This is a good point: Since users moving to Linux complain that they have to use a Sudo Password. I often remind them that they had to on Windows, validate everything, just as often if not more so.

I don't think any migrant from Windows would make that complaint any more - the two OSs are pretty much identical in the frequency and circumstances which require password elevation.

@Aravisian

On Windows, I needed to drop to cmd prompt daily.
It was a very rare day I did not need to open cmd multiple times.
I needed to install on Windows using Ninja in the cmd prompt often.
And probably, the most frequent use of it was merely to run regedit in order to change some d-word value - a practice I do not sorely miss, I can tell you.

I'm absolutely not about to call you a liar, but I feel certain you are exaggerating to make the point. I am a very heavy Windows user and I can't remember the last time I had to use the command prompt.

You talk about 'regedit', but in fact you don't need a command prompt for that, just hit the Start key and start typing 'reg' followed by the Enter key. That's true of every other executable, as far as I know.

You might argue that I'm actually using the command prompt, but it's just hidden from me. But I'm afraid I don't agree - there seem to be numerous actions that can only be performed in Linux from a command prompt, whereas the opposite is true in Windows. In fact, I can't think of any example (even regedit can be pinned to the Start menu with its own icon).

So what on earth were you doing that required you to use the Windows command prompt several times a day??!!

[SteveThackery]

@Aravisian

I prefer my tools to be laid out and accessible. Not hidden someplace where I need to go on a scavenger hunt of the OS to find them.

Yup - the ribbon is so much better than nested menus two or three deep in that regard.

[Aravisian]

@SteveThackery

I'm absolutely not about to call you a liar

That would be very wise, since it is completely believable that users will rely on different systems and use their computers differently.
No, I am not exaggerating, nor lying.
And on Zorin OS, I open the terminal more than any other app. I use if for fetching all system info, for checking updates, for uninstalling or installing software, for diagnosing, for listing locations, files, moving, copying, building, compiling...
So, I probably open terminal more than most Linux users.

On Windows, using Code, Intellij or most other IDE's, you will open the bash terminal a lot.
And much of what you can do with GUI on Windows can be done in cmd prompt. To this day, a large number of guides on the net for fixing Windows issues begin with the cmd prompt.
But in practice, many people have an aversion to the cmd prompt or terminal, so they try to avoid it. I do not.

@SteveThackery

(even regedit can be pinned to the Start menu with its own icon).

Yes, to do that, you set it in a script. Which makes it just as true to do the same on Linux.
I cannot think of any command that you must run in terminal that there is no GUI ability to do. For gsettings or xconf or xquery, there is dconf-editor or Settings apps...

[SteveThackery]

@Aravisian

The terminal is a very powerful and useful utility and part of this issue here is in fearing it rather than embracing it.

I cannot disagree that it is powerful and useful. However, it has two shortcomings. Firstly, it is (as far as I can tell) actually necessary for some functions (there is no graphical UI-based alternative). Secondly, it is surely the most unintuitive command line interface of any OS. I found this:

echo -e "a \e[0;31m B \e[0m k"

Yeah, OK, it's not very fair, but it's an example of how unintuitive the Linux command line can look.

[SteveThackery]

@Aravisian

And much of what you can do with GUI on Windows can be done in cmd prompt

Yes, of course!! My point is that you are doing so out of choice. That's what's great about Windows - you can do pretty much everything from the command prompt, or if you prefer you can do pretty much everything from the graphical UI. From what I can tell, this is not true of Linux.

[Aravisian]

Can you list out the commands that you can only run from terminal on Linux?
Yes, I realize that there are Complex Commands - but this is just as true on Mac OS and Windows. I mean commands that the average non-programmer user would need in order to function.

[SteveThackery]

Going back to the big picture: what I find interesting is the way some people switch to Linux for their desktop OS and seem quite happy. Other people (like me) switch to the very same distro and find it klunky and crude. It seems that some people are much more attuned to the "aesthetics" of an OS than others. In "aesthetics" I include the design language and user interactions, as well as the actual appearance.

I've been trying various Linux distros for a couple of decades now, especially since W8 came along, and I always end up becoming frustrated/disappointed and reverting to Windows. It's not for want of trying that I'm still stuck on Windows. Oh, and my criticisms of the OS are five-fold worse for most Linux apps - klunky and crude.

[SteveThackery]

@Aravisian

Can you list out the commands that you can only run from terminal on Linux?

No, I cannot and I'm sorry if I've misled you. All I can say is that every Linux book or online tutorial I've tried always involves the command line before very long, which implies to me that the command line must be a necessary part of interacting with the OS. I'm sorry to have misspoken if that is not true. But if I've got that impression, you can bet a barrowload of other people have as well.

[Aravisian]

@SteveThackery

It seems that some people are much more attuned to the "aesthetics" of an OS than others. In "aesthetics" I include the design language and user interactions, as well as the actual appearance.

I agree and this is frustrating.

@SteveThackery

Oh, and my criticisms of the OS are five-fold worse for most Linux apps - klunky and crude

I cannot agree with this, though. I am a long time Windows user and on Linux, I find many apps are better than the ones on WIndows. Troubleshooting is much easier on Linux than on Windows, as well. I can sort a Linux error code far, far more easily than "illegal operation" or "Error code 0x000013"

There are a few Windows Apps that work better. What comes to mind is the Office Suites and the Email Managers. Photoshop, too but... that is not Microsoft.
But medial players, text editors, IDE's, sound mixers and the like... I by far prefer Linux apps. They are smoother and more easy to operate. They don't give weird bugs for which there is No Hope of any resolution from Windows Support.
On Windows, the average time I spent trying to solve an issue was hours, whereas on Linux - it is minutes.
Which my time on this forum can easily attest to.

@SteveThackery

All I can say is that every Linux book or online tutorial I've tried always involves the command line before very long

See... as my activity on this forum shows, I often fall back to giving a command line instruction because it is easier on me.
I am a volunteer here. And my time must be accounted for for other duties.
It is far faster and easier for me to say to a user:

gsettings /path/to/fix

Than to type out a much longer set of instructions on managing each step through all the GUI jumps.
It is one sentence - or twenty.

[SteveThackery]

@Aravisian

Troubleshooting is much easier on Linux than on Windows, as well. I can sort a Linux error code far, far more easily than "illegal operation" or "Error code 0x000013"

Good grief, what kind of Windows apps do you use? It is years - maybe even approaching a couple of decades - since I've seen any errors like that.

@Aravisian

They don't give weird bugs for which there is No Hope of any resolution from Windows Support.

Well, why would Windows Support help you with a buggy app written by a third party?

Anyway, these are rhetorical questions - I hope you won't waste time on them.

I would, though, like to get to the bottom of why some people - including me - try really hard with Linux but cannot seem to find the love.

[Aravisian]

@SteveThackery

I would, though, like to get to the bottom of why some people - including me - try really hard with Linux but cannot seem to find the love.

To be brutally honest:
Our nature is to resist change, unfamiliar things and to take the easiest path.
Why do some people not like Curry without ever having even tried it?

This leads to perceptions like that Linux is somehow harder (no and they often struggled with new things on Windows), Linux being clunkier (No, it is not clunky, just unfamiliar and not what a person moving to it is used to), Linux being restrictive (Not - at - all. Linux offers far more options and diversity) and so on.
Many people still see Linux as being for Nerds and Elites.
In order to accept Linux, users must unlearn what Windows taught them. They must accept a new learning curve. And how many people like going back to school?

[zenzen]

I think this simply boils down to preference. Different people like different things for different reasons, simple as that.

[SteveThackery]

@Aravisian

Our nature is to resist change, unfamiliar things and to take the easiest path.
Why do some people not like Curry without ever having even tried it?

This leads to perceptions like that Linux is somehow harder (no and they often struggled with new things on Windows), Linux being clunkier (No, it is not clunky, just unfamiliar and not what a person moving to it is used to), Linux being restrictive (Not - at - all. Linux offers far more options and diversity) and so on.
Many people still see Linux as being for Nerds and Elites.

We'll, funny you should mention it. I can honestly say that I am not remotely resistant to change - indeed, I am impatient for it. In fact, I spent the second half of my career doing R&D for the telecommunications industry, and can honestly claim to have driven a fair bit of change.

The fact that I've probably tried 15-20 Linux distros over the years strongly suggests that I am hungry for an alternative to Windows.

I don't think Linux is more restrictive, and it's only harder because it's unfamiliar. I do, though, stand by my view that not a single one of the distros could have been anywhere near a usability lab, and it definitely shows in all sorts of subtle little annoyances and "amateurish" elements to the user experience.

@Aravisian

In order to accept Linux, users must unlearn what Windows taught them. They must accept a new learning curve.

Hmmm..... A new learning curve, yes, but surely no need to unlearn something already known. I use Windows, Linux and (until recently) MacOS. They all have far more in common than differences. There's room in your head for all three.

@Aravisian

And how many people like going back to school?

We'll, I'm one - I graduated with my first degree at the age of 59! Then a year of lecturing, followed by a two-year Master's. I don't think I can blame "stuck in a rut" for my discomfort with Zorin.

[SteveThackery]

Thank you for engaging at such length. At least we stayed on-topic.

[Aravisian]

@SteveThackery

The fact that I've probably tried 15-20 Linux distros over the years strongly suggests that I am hungry for an alternative to Windows.

I could argue a different perspective on this, actually. I did not try distrohopping until long after I switched from Windows to Zorin.
Understand: This is a Speculative statement. It is not one based on knowledge or facts.
However, that you tried so many over the years implies you are looking for something specific - something you believe that an OS should have. Yes, you may want away from Microsoft (for its faults) but not necessarily away from what Windows OS offers.
In this; it may be that you are looking through blinders for the entire time. Rather than looking at Linux for what it is, you are looking for something you want and have been hoping Linux would deliver it.
Kinda like dating, when you think about it.

@SteveThackery

but surely no need to unlearn something already known.

Yes, one must unlearn certain assumptions or preconceptions or also habits, too. If a person is in the habit of not being self-reliant, they must unlearn that habit to live in Alaska.

Yes, I have gone back to school, too. oof...

[4box]

TLDR: Microsoft Windows & Internet Explorer instability, Windows versions reaching end-of-life, overuse of system resources under Windows, Windows no good for older hardware, Microsoft's bad behaviour, Windows licence restriction to one language, Windows now adware. Linux capable, fast, secure and adjustable on all our hardware, giving new life to old machines and a better life with the new ones.

I've been moving away from Windows in stops and starts since 2002. What initially pushed me into finding and trying an operating system that wasn't the one that came with the computer was the constant BSODs I was getting with Windows 98 SE. Or rather the message that would show when restarting after these crashes, along the lines of "you should shut down Windows properly to avoid seeing this message". Like it was my fault their POS OS crashed all the time!!!

Eventually I got so cheesed off with both the crashes and messages telling me it was my fault that I started searching for an alternative operating system and found BeOS.
http://toastytech.com/guis/b5pe.html
By that point, Be Inc had released a freeware version that could be run from a floppy. I tried it out and was amazed at how stable and quickly it ran on the same hardware. (The spinning teapot!!!) I ran it for a couple of weeks but went back to Windows because I could never get any resolution better than VESA (800x600) on my 1400x1050 screen (lack of drivers, ever the bane of alternative OSes). The default browser on BeOS R5 was Opera, and when I started using Opera instead of Internet Explorer in Windows 98, the number of crashes dropped dramatically.

So I stuck with Windows (while keeping an eye on the various efforts to continue/recreate BeOS after Microsoft killed the company) until the mid-noughties when I started experimenting with various *nix OSes: especially Ubuntu (I still have in a drawer some of those free Ship-it CDs of Hoary Hedgehog from 2006), Puppy (in particular a puplet called NOP, with the XFCE desktop environment and my beloved Opera), PC-BSD (Free BSD made user-friendly, now True OS IIRC), Linux Mint (the version that started with "D", whatever that was) and many, many others. (That same drawer still has CD-Rs with Slax, Feather, Knoppix, Mandriva etc.) Until I finally settled on some Ubuntu respin whose name I can't remember (sales pitch: "it's Ubuntu but with all teh CoDecS!!11!") and then the light, fast and cloud-ready Peppermint, with Tiny XP in a VM for the one program I needed for work that was Windows-only. It was fast, reliable and did everything I wanted.

After a year or so full-time in Peppermint (circa 2010), a few things happened.

1. I got a new machine that came with Windows 7.
2. Windows 7 did not suck!
3. I couldn't get everything I needed for work (e.g. in-house software plus Skype plus USB headset) to all work together well in Linux on the new machine, not even via a Windows VM.

So I stuck with Windows, which was finally good enough. When Windows 8.1 came with a new PC, I immediately slapped Classic Shell on it (to get rid of all that touchscreen paradigm they were trying to force on even desktop PCs), and that was good enough too. I would occasionally try out a live USB of Mint or something, but never made the move away from Windows.

The first sign I was not going to stick with Windows was when they chose to force Windows 10 on everyone, including tricks like making the Close button on the Upgrade window map to "Yes, please go ahead and install Windows 10" (and I had to install a third-party program just to prevent such shennanigans). Then hearing how W10 was essentially adware/spyware, and how it's only got worse with W11.

Also the various W7 and W8 computers accumulated over the years were still capable but their OSes were slow, end-of-life and too insecure to connect to the internet.

And my desktop (W8.1) and my mum's newer laptop (W10 then involuntarily upgraded to W11) seemed to be churning the hard drive constantly, and her laptop was nigh unusable because the CPU, RAM and HD were almost always at 100%. (Under Windows. When using the same hardware with a Linux live USB, everything was super responsive.)

So I finally started, in December 20222, by wiping Windows 7 from her older laptop and installed Zorin Lite, the plan being to start there, get familiar with the OS and needed tweaks, and then install Zorin Lite on all other PCs too, both mine and hers. To get the same secure, stable and capable operating system running on all machines, both modern and ancient.

I also just bought a new laptop at the sales last week, and every time I think of leaving Windows on it (say, to dual boot in an emergency), all I have to is start it up and within seconds I'm faced with the fact that a) it won't let me change the operating system's language to the one I want ("Your licence only permits one language"), and b) ... pop-ups! Pop-ups for Xbox Pass, pop-ups for McAfee, pop-ups for Lenovo warranties. It's like browsing the web in the late 90s, only now the pop-ups are coming from the computer itself. ("The call... it's coming from inside the house!" )

So now I'm going to wipe Windows from every machine I can get my hands on and install Zorin Lite.

PS Why Zorin Lite? I needed:

• something that would run well on older hardware as well as new (I didn't want to be learning two or three different OSes to cover all the different computers)
• something that is a major distro or closely based on one (for support issues and the assurance that it wouldn't disappear overnight)
• something that doesn't stray too far from classic Windows interaction (so I don't have to retrain my mum, I'm her tech support)
• something that is generally user-friendly
• something that had Wine built in (because of need to run Windows software for work)

[Sorro]

@Aravisian

Can you list out the commands that you can only run from terminal on Linux?

Installing some software requires using the terminal

Example: hplip (the software for hp printers) asks to run a ".run" file in the terminal. Of course, all you have to type in are things like "yes" "continue" "install" when it tells you to, but just the fact that it's being run from the terminal and a lot of lines of text is constantly appearing is enough to scare the average Windows user, since the majority of them never touched the terminal and see it as a system-breaking tool (like i used to before switching to linux)

[Aravisian]

@Sorro

Example: hplip

I just checked Software Store on hplip and it gave no result.
But it does give a return in Synaptic Package Manager and can be installed in that GUI.
So, a user may need to switch GUI Package Managers, but can still install it without terminal.
Synaptic can be installed with Software Store.