Snaps and Ubuntu/Zorin

Chat about Zorin
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I was wondering if the Zorin Group would care to comment on something (doubtful, since this post is coming from me, and the Zorin Group hasn't responded to my feedback about Zorin OS), that I think is gaining critical importance in the Linux community. Ubuntu has been shifting towards a (sadly) 100% Snap-based OS, and based on my research, it looks as though their goal is to mostly ditch Debian, and be not just Snap-only, but also an immutable OS. The "immutable" part I can understand, but Snaps? In their current shape and form (what with .assert files and all that), absolutely NOT. No way. No how. Would Zorin shift to whatever Snap-only base Ubuntu goes with? I don't see how that'd be feasible. The customizations that Zorin currently offers would be either lost, or made difficult. I think this is 100% worthy of a response from the Zorin Group, because Ubuntu moving to a Snap-only distribution really would affect the whole Zorin shtick (loss of customizations, having to deal with Snaps, even more limited GNOME flexibility; in effect making Zorin OS a "theme pack" in the end and not so much an OS anymore). This is part of why I moved away from Zorin OS, because I can see the writing on the wall, and a few others here like @Aravisian can. So, how about it, @AZorin and @zorink?

Care to comment? Thanks to all.

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Whilst Zorin has made attempts to also include Flatpak and APT, but appears more limited in 18 from personal experience which led me to remove gnome-software (Software) and rely on Synaptic Package Manager, I would argue that Gnome is more of an immediate threat than Ubuntu.

Artix appears to have been more on the ball by dropping Gnome back in June last year.

What is also telling is that LM hasn't limited itself to Ubuntu. LMDE is a better distro than the default one because it uses Debian you can add/change the DE from the default Cinnamon.

I've long argued that Zorin should leave Ubuntu and move to Debian.

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Ubuntu will go Snap-only in Combination with the immutable Model, I read that, too. The Thing is: With this immutable Thing, the Snap and Flatpak Format is better because they run isolated. And Ubuntu of Course doesn't take Flatpak because they have their own Format: snap.

When You look at KDE with their upcoming KDE Linux, they will use Flatpak-only. At the End the same, but they will use Arch as Base.

The Customizations in Form of Gnome Extensions wouldn't disappear. You can install Gnome extensions on immutable Distros, too as far as I know. When You would use the Extension Manager as Flatpak, You can install Extensions. But to be open here: I never tested that by myself because the immutable Concept isn't my Thing.

But it would be possible to test it with Vanilla OS or Fedora Silverblue. these are immutable Distros with Gnome.

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I think that before a question can be answered, the question must establish its claims.

A link or two, directing toward Canonical's stated plans, would help.

Everything I have read states that Ubuntu is not shifting to an Immutable Desktop.
However, they are considering offering an Immutable variant.
https://ubuntu.com/blog/ubuntu-core-an-immutable-linux-desktop

This means that the standard Desktop will remain available for derivatives, like Mint OS and Zorin OS to use.

I can find no information, anywhere, that Ubuntu will be shifted to Snap Only.

Update: I couldn't, but @Ponce-De-Leon could. In the following post, I link to that exchange where an unofficial announcement from a high level Canonical Employee states this exact desire:

I have noted that some packages in Ubuntu are quietly shifted to being redirected to Snaps, which is a disgrace, but it is not an entire APT replacement.
The concept of an immutable desktop (As an optional variant) is vaguely described in a brief snippet of a blog post as being primarily Snaps, but I would not consider this to be a Canonical Statement on the matter:

It’s essentially the Ubuntu desktop packaged up as a bunch of snap packages.

This is one attendee's compressed interpretation of the matter.

Immutable variants that currently exist run a variety of package management, just like standard desktops do. There is nothing about an immutable build that suggests Snaps or even Containerized apps would be overall better; indeed, they would cause the same exacts problems on an immutable desktop as they do a standard one. Importantly, these may run into worse problems for the same reason that extensions would:

In a limited way, yes. You technically can install them, but it is far more limited than on a standard desktop.
Immutable bases reduce ability to hot-patch system JS/CSS. System-level shell overrides (which Zorin relies on) become harder and ABI/API drift becomes harder to mitigate. These can affect Flatpak or Snap packages as well, either creating more bloat as the self contained packages try to compensate, or just breakage when they cannot fully communicate with the base system that is too far out of touch.

So... I can find no support on this one, either. Are you referring to a specific distro that makes this claim?
Because Plasma or KDE is an environment, not a distro, and I can find nothing that states its maintainers have expressed this desire (They could not enforce it, so it would be a desire, only).

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KDE Linux is a thing. The KDE team has made their own distro called KDE Linux. :slight_smile:

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Ah... And looking at it

It is immutable and does not contain a package manager. Instead, it depends on the user to install Snaps, Flatpaks or Appimages.

Count me out... on all fronts.
Wow.

Remember when Linux was an undiscovered country and everything was new and fun? KDE Linux is that all over again

Yes, by removing the parts that make it New and Fun. Right.

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Additionally they have dropped .iso's for .raw. I have yet to find a Plasma distro with an up-to-date .iso burner to convert .raw to .iso.

My other complaint about Plasma is allowing a version to stay alive when it has reached a workable status as in 5.27.xx. Plasma gives the impression of creating new releases every month which then means Global themes written for other iterations no longer work. I notice they have added a get-out clause when you attempt to install a new Global theme about it breaking the desktop and to be cautious. The errors that I have witnessed are:

  1. Not a valid Theme.
  2. Long string text indicating a failed install.
  3. .knsrc mismatch errors/missing wallpaper.

When 5.2x was released, pling dot com installs were mis-aligned to what KDE was expecting requiring some code to be altered in the back end. KDE appears to be under financial pressure of late so will be interesting to see if it will survive. One thing is certain, they need to start in moving away from pling which effectively operates kde.store.org and have their own repo with themes uploaded checked before releasing them to frustrated users.

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I posted something in the Past:

The linked Article is in German. So maybe not the best for a primary English-speaky Forum. But I read it there.

Ubuntu Core exists, too, yes. But how it is at the Moment, it is in my Understanding more for Industry Usage.

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Personally, I don’t believe in it in the current situation.
Because of the sandbox and the way packages are managed --> the one used with its two previous versions still in the computer (by default).

And in order to limit this presence on the SSD/HDD as much as possible:

sudo snap set system refresh.retain=2

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I am cross linking this here:

As @Ponce-De-Leon has added substance that does suggest that Canonical indeed plans to replace Ubuntu with a Snaps Only immutable default download.

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If this happens, do you foresee "Debian → Ubuntu → Zorin OS" becoming instead "Debian → Zorin OS?"

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I would hope so.

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What if anything is lost by the elimination of Ubuntu from equation?

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I imagine it is less work to replace that, then to undo a Snap Only and Immutable desktop...

Most likely, though... The ZorinGroup will use the "Classic Ubuntu" until that gets shut down.

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Ubuntu offers better support for a wide variety of hardware. I had problems with purely Debian-based distributions on my old notebook, because of this I prefer an Ubuntu base.

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Were you able to solve the hardware issues on your old notebook without changing distributions?

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No, I tested (installed) various distributions on my system. On some distributions my fans were nearly constantly running (even lightweight ones as Antix, MX Linux XFCE), on others as Zorin Lite and Linux Mint XFCE not.

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There is something I find strange in this discussion...
It’s a bit like if some people were talking about macOS or Windows.
But, with GNU/Linux, there are a very large number of variants: distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=popularity

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Our discussion has to do with the dependencies that any particular distribution depends on. MS Windows and Mac OS also have many of these dependencies, (it's an eye-opener to search), but theirs are proprietary not meant to be altered. But Linux being "open source" makes for marvelous variety. Each distribution has its own geneology.

Here's one for Zorin 18 XFCE:

Linux: Dev in 1991 as a personal project of Linus Torvalds, it was initially a standalone operating system kernel.

Gnu: The Linux kernel, when integrated with GNU components, became a fully functional operating system

Debian: This distribution is a "primary level" implementation of GNULinux with its own distinct design choices, policies, and tooling, combined with a huge set of additional software packages. Other primary level ("from scratch") distributions of Linux include Fedora, Arch, OpenSUSE, etc. etc.

Ubuntu: Ubuntu is built on top of Debian’s work and stays closely tied to it. In practice, Ubuntu starts from Debian’s packages, then adds its own choices, release cycle, and polish. Ubuntu often adds newer software, custom kernels, desktop tweaks, and proprietary drivers/firmware options that Debian does not enable by default. Most notably, Ubuntu specializes in LTS (long‑term support) releases aimed at ease of use for desktops and servers.

Zorin: Zorin OS is an Ubuntu‑based distribution that tracks Ubuntu’s long‑term support (LTS) releases as its base. Zorin focuses on a user‑friendly desktop with layouts that resemble Windows, custom theming, and preinstalled tools (like its Windows‑app integration and Zorin Connect) to ease migration from other systems.

Gnome: GNOME is a desktop environment (DE) which Zorin adopted and has customized to create a user-friendly experience for the desktop user, with the purpose of making it more accessible for users transitioning from Windows or macOS.

XFCE: This is an alternative desktop environment that can be easily downloaded and used instead of (not "on top" of) GNOME). Xfce was originally created as a free, Linux version of the Common Desktop Environment (CDE) used on commercial Unix systems. It started in 1996 as “XForms Common Environment,” explicitly aiming to clone CDE’s look and feel for Linux using the XForms toolkit. (The XForms toolkit was an easier, relatively small, and capable independent forms library for the X11* windowing system, and was originally used to build graphical user interfaces on Unix workstations.)
From this initial purpose, XFCE gradually evolved into a general desktop environment focused on being lightweight, modular, and standards‑compliant.

*Speaking of X11, Zorin OS allows for two types of windowing system. Wayland is the default, but X11 is a permanently selectable alternative. Many prefer it for many reasons, one of which is that In order to use the XFCE Desktop environment, one must use the X11 (Xorg) windowing stystem.

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Hey Merinos, please forgive me if I misunderstood your comment. I certainly don't mean to come off pendantic, especially since I am new to Linux. You prompted me to learn a few things, and I had to share. Then I read it and thought (hoo-boy)...