Tangent discussion about loyalty

Chat about Zorin
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Neither was I. Start11 and Fences are both functional UI improvements, as is Groupy (though I had to visit the site just now to realize that one existed). Multiplicity is out of scope for this discussion, and I wasn't talking about Object Desktop or its components at all. Their products to which I was referring are all those that enable changes to desktop workflow.

They have a free version still, but the biggest reason I paid back then is still a mandatory feature for me now: hiding pre-installed garbage in my app drawer. Hiding things is a paid feature.

No, but that's never been a point of contention, at least not with me--I only disagree about how many incoming users it'd actually affect.

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I stand corrected. I am attentive at the moment, which allows me to respond quickly. It appears, it allows me to read quickly, too. I should slow it down. :wink:

@vic and yourself have both presented good and strong counter arguments to mine that really help balance viewpoints and give a lot of room for all readers reflection. It's really great stuff.

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23

Not defending Gnome, but there's still a point:

  1. don't have to buy a new computer for Windows 11
  2. would pay less for a Zorin licence than for a Microsoft one
  3. one should not have to learn much, since Zorin tries to make the new OS behave, at a superficial level / for basic tasks, similarly to Windows

You're quite good at articulating all the technical features (the Summary above). I guess you imply that Xfce is better than Gnome at all that.

In the end, I would think Zorin group have considered the option to sunset Gnome instead of Xfce, and decided otherwise.
To the extent that their decision is wrong - in a benefit-cost sense - they will stand to lose the users who will choose a different distro (a bit faster; easier to customize etc).
It's great that the OS market is far from monopoly.

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This might actually be opposite what most people like, but I'd prefer if a lot of distros stripped some DEs from their OSs and focused on one, maybe two. A lot of the time, other DEs have rough edges that never get ironed out, due to lack of manpower. Or just lack of desire of one DE over another.

So in that sense I actually like the fact they're focusing on one DE. I just personally prefer XFCE over Gnome, and am disappointed because it seems they constantly take away basic functionality, making people go to many more extensions to get that functionality back. But as a business, and a beginner user looking to find something to download, having just one DE as the option is most likely the smart option.

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Why do you like that better though? Unless the OS is doing a LOT of customization like Zorin does to GNOME, they don't have to spend inordinate amounts of time on a DE to include it. If some of those DEs have rough edges, don't use them. You gain nothing by taking it out, but those who do prefer them do lose something. In my admittedly limited experience, GNOME is an outlier in that it needs so much handholding to feel complete (via extensions). Including more options would not increase work or time linearly with the number of extensions.

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This is the main reason, frankly. If Zorin is going for something with the least amount of rough areas, then just focus solely on a singular desktop experience. It's why I assume they decided to hide the Lite downloads in the recent releases compared to prior where it was fairly prominent. You gain the ability to strictly look at one environment, and while adding another de isn't realistically overly complex at all, making sure everything is smoothed out and completely functional? That's more work than I think most people assume.

I for one don't care about rough edges, but I'm not most people. Most people would look at something like Moksha, or XFCE and say they're dated and rough at times. And yeah, to an extent. But the flexibility one has is why I like them. In certain cases, you gain more polish and time on one things versus if you had 3-4 DEs and regularly have small breaks here or there that you need to keep going back to and checking out.

I disagree with this statement. Any time you add something, it takes more time than you care to admit. And I love fiddling with things until it's 4 am and I have to work at 6. But if I was doing it as a legitimate job? Id cut out anything that made my life harder. Now, would that mean I would select Gnome as my project DE? Definitely not, but that's clearly what Zorin sees as their way forward. So to them, why waste any more resources than necessary to achieve their goal?

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I specifically said linearly. Unless they develop the same number of customizations to each supported DE as they HAD TO for GNOME to feel complete, it would not increase linearly. I'm not denying that something takes time to add, and I've been in software long enough to be all too familiar with things exceeding expectations. But adding XFCE would not likely take as long as adding GNOME and developing zorin-os-desktop and developing all of the appearance customizations. Adding Plasma wouldn't, as it doesn't rely anywhere near as much on extension for completeness. That's why I said "linearly."

I test software for a living. I can't tell you how long an operating system takes to fully test, but I am intimately familiar with designing and testing matrices of combinations and complex "pass/fail" evaluations, with confirming the expected use cases work, and with trying deliberately to break things. Everything from "Are the icons right?" to "if this character drops this pair of pants on the ground, does it look right from every angle?" to "are the correct versions of SDKs being used?" It's my career. If Zorin were developing their own DE like Pop OS is doing, I'd be much, much more inclined to agree with you. But in the distributions I've tried, not one has had DE breakage as a result of including more than one. That's the purpose of the freedesktop specification. If the DE is compliant, then the distro shouldn't need to do the same amount of checking, because it's done upstream. If the DE is not compliant, then it shouldn't be a candidate for inclusion anyway. That's not to say no testing or correction is necessary, but the burden is greatly reduced.

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I must point out that this is a bit of a Red Herring. As I addressed much of what applecheeks said in an earlier reply, I did not repeat myself.
But, XFCE is not being discussed to be potentially added.
Since the earliest days of Zorin OS, the OS has included more than one D.E.
It was LXDE. This was later changed in favor of XFCE.

My summarized list was not an exhortation of any D.E. being better than another - it lists only what I meant by customization.

And ZorinGroup included more than just D.E.s - commemorative works, a gaming edition, Education Edition and so on. This is an important point. They were not overworked with all of that.

I do find Zorin Grid to be ambitious, however...

A lot is.
And... rough edges are a part of every D.E., also - almost all of this is upstream.

ZorinGroup developed what became Arc Menu and other extensions because they are good at smoothing some rough edges. But this does not obligate them to do so...

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Apologies if so. I named it because it's on the simple end, no other reason.

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Unintentional, yes.
It is a linguistic flow: Applecheeks mentioned adding things.
As this then transitioned into XFCE, that concept was carried along. This could potentially keep rolling down the hill picking up snow: Thus may post to address the snowball before it gets bigger.

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I do wonder how much of the decision to axe XFCE is related to attempting to get Zorin Grid off the ground. Having only one environment to focus on getting something like that going, seems like a pretty likely scenario to me. Especially with Wayland being the main on Core now vs X still on XFCE.

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I don't strictly speaking disagree with the whole of what you're saying. I think they absolutely could have a second DE. But if someone said to me that they need to focus entirely on one environment to achieve their goal (which I think Zorin Grid is being brought in to play here as well), then I'd say, at least temporarily, that's a good thing. It doesn't have to be forever that they get rid of a second option, either. It's entirely possible that they bring back a different experience later. I'm not talking exactly DE breakage, I don't think I've had anything like that in any recent memory. But cohesiveness, that's an easy one to spot, which is also the fault of Gnome to a pretty large degree.

And realistically, to me it makes no difference, because I can install another DE and be happy. But I've been testing other XFCE distros whenever I can, because I prefer it to be properly implemented by someone else, instead of me having to fiddle with things here or there.

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I'm fine with a Linux distribution sticking with one desktop environment. Take Zorin OS, for example. GNOME is what the Zorin Group has picked and made to work in everyday scenarios for end users. They've done a good job with GNOME, given its original state of minimalism (and accompanying limitations). Think of Windows. Microsoft would change its "look," sure, but at the same time, users have always had the choice to change its theme and/or overall look, like with customization software available (think Stardock, et cetera) or with Windows' own tools.

So in that sense, there's nothing inherently wrong with Zorin OS sticking with GNOME and not releasing additional editions with other desktop environments, because people can install other ones if they want (like with themes on Windows). I hope this makes sense to others. Point is, as users of Zorin OS, we're supporting the developers' vision of what computing should be. By extension, we ought to be OK with the choice of GNOME because we all made that choice, consciously.

We also implicitly accept there is no other desktop environment readily available (or eventually will be after XFCE stops for Zorin), and in doing so, accept Zorin in its state, and ought to be content there is no other desktop environment available. If a new one is desired, it can be installed at users' discretion and choice. Again, I hope this makes sense. I know this view may or may not immediately mesh with the overall Linux philosophy of choice and freedom, but to use a particular OS is a choice after all, and that's what we have here still after all is said and done.

P.S.: Case in point - Linux Lite is an example of a distribution that uses only one desktop environment (XFCE), and I don't see anyone making a fuss over that.

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To me, a freshly re-born Linux user (after 15 years of WINx) the announcement is timely communicated, reasonable and understandable.

We commit to making the Lite edition of Zorin OS available in the Zorin OS 17 and Zorin OS 18 release series. That means Zorin OS Lite will continue to be fully supported and maintained until at least June 2029.
We aim to sunset the Lite edition from Zorin OS 19 onwards, so it would no longer be actively developed as an official edition of Zorin OS.

Thanks to recent optimizations to the standard desktop environment, the non-Lite editions of Zorin OS (Core, Pro, and Education) are able to provide a fast and resource-efficient computing experience on older computers.

The different desktop environments in the Lite and non-Lite editions of Zorin OS have discrepancies in their design and functionality, which can result in an inconsistent user experience. Reducing this fragmentation will provide a more cohesive experience for all users and make it easier to find relevant support resources.

By focusing on a single unified desktop experience, we’ll be able to spend our time & resources more effectively to develop new features and achieve our vision of making the most user-friendly operating system for all users.

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Agreed. It's been in the works for a long time. They haven't said much about it except in an interview with Destination Linux (if I recall right) that they want to get it ready before Windows 10 stops. That is coming soon, and quickly. Tick-tock. :grimacing:

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It has been commented on, but is a tangent on this Zorin forum.

This is a false equivalence principle and false consent model.

Discontent is a legitimate form of feedback. Your commentary is a sharp contradiction of every critical feedback you often and vocally have supplied on this forum.
Why have you been speaking out instead of feeling as if you ought to be content?

Those that choose Zorin OS may have a variety of reasons to do so. For example:

A person can install another D.E. but it won't be supported by ZorinGroup.

Showing support is not an all or nothing affair. Not in anything, not in distros...
This is about an announced change in what Zorin OS Supports. Or won't support.

A user that does not want to switch to another distro for a variety of reasons can feel compelled to try to use Zorin OS Core after Lite is dropped in order to fulfill those reasons; but to say they "ought to be content" with all developer decisions is mind blowing wording.
By that logic; all feedback is moot.
Every product becomes Boycott or Buy with 100% support and be complicit with every Single Decision made by that supplier.

You have been quite outspoken with your criticism; yet make this statement.
Framing usage as support implicitly delegitimizes criticism. If you criticize Zorin OS, are you now being unfaithful to a vision you "agreed" with just by using it?
Sounds contractual.

Zorin OS could drop support for Wifi Chipsets, Graphics cards or Motherboards:
Would anyone argue that ZorinGroup is reducing their workload so that they can Make Gnome Better?

No. It does not make sense.

A project is a project as a whole. No one is adding XFCE... It is being taken.
Stripped away.
Not replaced.
Removed.

For what vision?
Centralization, domination and control? Limited supported choices?

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I definitely don't agree with this. And as I've said, I'm checking what's available everywhere and deciding on my next long term distro (which to be fair, there's no rush currently, but it'll happen sooner or later). A lot of this really just to me seems as though Zorin wants to be better supportive of small businesses and education, versus your stereotypical end-user. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing... but it is definitely a different thing than most the advertising of Zorin targeting specifically end users that are reaching end of life of windows 10 lately.

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Will respond later. Thanks!

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To me, it seems a long observable trend over time.
The ZorinGroup has been increasingly aligning its focus with an enterprise-oriented model.
The transition from Zorin Ultimate to Zorin Pro, the deprecation of gaming support and Zorin Games in the Pro version (see below for in depth on both of these points), shifts in desktop and display protocol priorities, and the centralization of package management—suggest a move toward a managed, business-supply framework.

Zorin Grid caters specifically to organizational deployment and administrative control.

In fairness, many of these decisions may also be interpreted as serving general end-user interests.
Taken as a whole, the direction of development aligns more closely with enterprise and institutional needs, while only partially addressing the broader diversity of end-user expectations.

The removal of Zorin OS Lite from the main download page:
Instead, a user must scroll down to find a small link. This seeks to discourage awareness of Zorin OS Lite well ahead of its official discontinuation.
Thread:

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If I am honest with myself and to others my presence here is to help migrators on their GNU/Linux journey. There have been many disappointments in my GNU/Linux journey, the first being the demise of Mandrake/Mandriva, especially how Gaël Duval was the first person to be axed when Mandriva was facing financial difficulties, the second was the disloyalty of Michael Robertson, who was really mor bothered about making money by selling off Linspire to Xandros and not abiding by the Board of Management rules of no sell off without board approval, just when Click'n'Run had reached a stable release for installing software.

I cannot speak of loyalty myself, being born in traitor county. The Cheshire Regiment in the UK still does not have Royal Status following an uprising against the Crown hundreds of years ago. One could argue I have the rebellious genes of the Cheshires, but in reality, there is more Celtic blood in me based on Welsh and Cornish ancestry ultimately.

Having joined some years ago the local Linux User Group I learned that:
systemd was like giving your PC a barcode that anyone could read, that Snap was a security hole as much as telnet or 'finger'. Away from the local LUG I've also learned that systemd, pulse audio (widely adopted by the automotive industry I only found out relatively recently) and flatpak have all been pushed forward by the Microsoft wannabe of the GNU/Linux world Red Hat.

I have stated in the foreword of all the unofficial manuals that users of Zorin should not limit themselves to the experience of only using Zorin. In regard to Windows 10 users migrating to Zorin their may be two camps, the older users seeing a familiar Windows 7 styled Menu. Then for the younger generation that easily migrated from 8 to 10 are likely to see it as a backward step when Plasma (5.27) can be configured very easily to look and feel like a Windows 10 continuation, when all that is needed is to install Tiled Menu by zren, which, when default apps are selected for the tiled area, there is now a web link to Gmail. My preference on my GNU/Linux journey had always been KDE as it was a familiar layout to that of Windows at the time. My preferences shifted, being employed to produce modified texts in large print and Braille, when I learned of then Gnome's superior accessibility packages. But times change things and the boundaries become less when KDE/Plasma can offer the same Gnome accessibility apps that you could only find in Gnome previously.

Sadly the world appears to be going back in time when it comes to treating people with lesser abilities than most of the general population. I have only just recently learned that a University in this country is scrapping extended time for examinations being undertaken by students with a disability. One of the first GNU/Linux distributions to offer screen reader support was Knoppix, as Karl Knopper, its creator, has a wife who is blind. My disappointment with Knoppix with version 6.0 I think it was, would only allow you to create ReiserFS partitions. One of my favourite Ubuntu forks was Trisquel which was at the time of release of either 5.5 or 6.0, can't remember,the top menu option for live boot was with the screen reader. Excellent inclusive distro.

Following the demise of Freespire, the community edition of Linspire, as a result of Michael Robertson's shennanigans, I was earnest in looking to find an OS that closely resembled Windows. This was when I discovered Zorin OS at version 4. The rest is history.

Whilst running Zorin 15 for personal use, during lockdown I was using FerenOS (Plasma) as my main workhorse until December 2020 when I migrated to Devuan 3.0, primarily to be rid of the bloatware that is systemd. Interestingly, the default DE is xfce, but it offers multiple DE's at point of install. In respect of Plasma, the only issue I had with Devuan was SDDM and the automatic appearance of the on-screen keyboard at the login screen. So Devuan became my main workhorse whilst working from home until I retired end of August 2021. Devuan, AFAIK, is the only GNU/Linux distribution that enables a blind user with a Brailliant device can install it unaided by a sighted peer.

Sometime last year I wanted to give PCLOS (PCLinuxOS based on Mandrake 9.2, an .rpm distro) a whirl as there was no systemd or elogind (the latter of which the devs of elogind acknowledged it had some links/base relating to the work of systemd devs). Sadly I could not install it as it did not like my GT1030 card, I had to downgrade to a GT440 I bought off eBay.

Now more recently I had dabbled with KDE Neon with repetitive disasters following minor updates and two major upgrades.

More recently still I discovered my OS nirvana, PCLOS Debian, no systemd, no pulse audio! Additionally multiple DE's of budgie, cinnamon, MATE, KDE, KDE Mini, and xfce. Synaptic Package Manager taking pride of place for Software installation and system upgrades.
My second choice was the rediscovery of Q4OS and I would argue is just as ideal a contender for a noob migrating from Windows as Zorin is, and if anything has an even more closer resemblance to Windows than Zorin. Additionally they also still maintain a Trinity DE (KDE before Plasma) in both 64-bit and 32-bit. The application installer, OSI gives a very similar feel to a Windows experience, and additionally it is a rolling release. I started off at 5.5 and currently at 5.8.

At the end of the day, be loyal to yourself, believe in what you believe in, not just computing, and hold fast to your beliefs.

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