Zorin 16 where are you?

Chat about Zorin
#9

I have put a great deal of time into this and the old Zorin Group forum trying to help others.
I make mistakes often. I am also stumped, often. I hope in doing so that it helps me to learn about the Linux system, to confront problems I might otherwise not be introduced to and to better myself as a person. I can use the improvement.
But it also is because of gratitude. The Zorin Group made available an operating system that I could install and use- For Free. And it has been a great operating system. It resurrected a computer that otherwise would not have had a chance as my Automotive Diagnostic tool. And made my regular PC a powerhouse.
I felt driven to support Zorin Group in my own way. To pay it back.

But where other Developers update their users, even if it is with bad news, where other developers respond… What many of us experience from the Zorin Group is silence.

Zorin Direct Upgrade? Promised for a long time, now - and Zero Word Yet.
Zorin Grid?
Zorin 16?

I decided to send @AZorin a PM on this. In that PM, I raised the issue of the lack of any reasonable update, in spite of many users asking. That we who are trying to Help the Zorin Group are left holding empty reigns. I said to Artyom this:

People can handle a little disappointment or delays or some bad news- As long as they are updated and informed and kept posted. But Silence leads the Imagination.
And human nature is- that imagination won’t be very forgiving or friendly or assume the Best of You.
When people are updated, they handle it better than we fear. But when they are kept in the dark, they listen to their fear.

On Discord, I am hearing Grumbling. I relayed this and I said

I am sorry for the tone. I am certainly not telling you what to do- your choices are always your own. Choices- have results. Its not my intention to sound belittling in any way- Just the facts.

This message was sent 14 days ago.
No reply.
Yesterday, I PM’ed Kyrill Zorin @zorink about a different issue and he replied right away.
Having his attention, I raised the issue I PM’d Azorin about and gave a brief of what I said.
Zorink stopped responding.

I understand busy. I am often quite literally replying to help threads on this forum while working, while working on cars, even. While answering the phone. While answer my own customers- and this includes ensuring that I give them updates Before They Ask For Them.
When addressed in such a helpful manner above, the last thing I would do is sit on that. I would make it a point to get a message out, right away. That is how professionals do work.

I have given benefit of the doubt. I have waited most patiently, all the while, assisting Zorin Group to the best of my ability on this Forum.
For a loud burst of silence?
I have no sympathy- Artyom Zorin and Kyrill- You have had Plenty of time. Plenty.
I was not telling you what to do. I was telling you to do what is Right.

The silence has led my imagination and Zorin Group had more than enough warning of it. Frankly, more than any 14 days.
My impressions have been made. You are the developers that make Zorin OS happen, but we are the members that Make it successful. We deserve better than to be ignored and given silence.
What are you guys doing? Where is Zorin 16… Dude, Where is ZORIN? Where are you guys? With the silence, I could speculate all the most negative things that I know people may do when they are not doing what is Right.

And if you get upset that I posted this here- Be sure to look in your PM inbox; a message sent 14 days ago. More then enough time for even the busiest of people- I Should Know.

This urge to try to help members of this forum with troubleshooting and customizing is Rapidly waning.

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#10

Thanks for all the effort. It is a shame that they do not even address this is some fashion. In the end theyw ill either address it or people will leave for other distro. The matter is in their hands

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#11

Wow, I am going to have to agree here. I am one of the ones who actually purchased Zorin OS 9 Ultimate and OS 12 ultimate, so I personally didn’t get nothing for free.

I chose Zorin OS because I thought it was great for beginners, coming from Windows. It also gets highly rated on OS review sites.

I remember how things used to be, the Zorin devs were more engaged with members and the moderating staff. But these days they are silent. And that silence has lost them another Zorin user.

I’ll be switching to POP OS with XFCE flavor soon. I’ll still be on the forum with Aravisian trying to help others here and stay active. God knows, we’ve all been contributing in here.

But on most support requests, we don’t here from the devs, for their own software. We’re answering most of those questions for them. Aravisian has been putting in lots of time recently to the Dual Boot issue recently.

But no word from the devs on OS 16, sorry, that won’t fly for me. And when I get my new computer, it’s latest hardware, will require latest kernel and drivers, which won’t be found on OS 15.

I’m liking many of yours guys posts in here because I agree with you all.

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#12

I found out and came to zorin from elementary os. I didn't try the free, i straight up bought the ultimate. It was the best thing ever on my acer. Now i have an Asus, had to upgrade the firmware and kernel, but still everything has not been working. I've tried to live with this, have tried xubuntu since and hate it. I may try pop os, but what i really want to see is zorin 16 because i fell in love with its predecessor. If the devs won't even continue to support this OS and its community I'm wondering why i should. I haven't been here long, so what i say may not matter, but i thought i was joining a team and community that cares. Unfortunately, like so many other worthwhile endeavors, i guess i joined to late and this to is on its way to the dogs. It's a shame. It's difficult finding an OS and community worth the time and effort anymore. It's been fun.

1 Like
#13

I have been reminding myself of this a lot.

One thing we all can remember is that the Zorin Group consists of just two people. That is a lot of work for two people, notwithstanding Zorin OS being able to run with the big dogs like Mint and even, on some levels, outperform Linux Mint.
Don't get me wrong. Linux Mints team is high on my respect list. They also have "Roadmaps to the next development," are very open and communicative and I agree with many of their ideals. I appreciate when they disagree with mine.
Zorin does not have a roadmap to follow. Their presence on the new Zorin Forum (Here) has been greater than it was on the Zorin Group forum (Now archived). Back then, they rarely ever spoke at all.

I have spoken to the Zorin group about these concerns before. This was not out of left field. It was not a surprise. And I sent messages to both recently.
For disclosure... Azorin did reply to my PM yesterday.
And he said the worst possible thing he could have said.
He was not rude in anyway... He relayed that he would reply at a later date.
Ask yourself... Given that he has been informed of off-site rumblings that have been going on for a while... Given the very rumblings in this thread... Would you put this off?
Absolutely not.
Or would you drop what you are doing and respond to this Right Away?
A resound yes.
I have watched Artyom Zorin give the most polite, helpful and dignified replies to people who were giving the most cruel of words to him.
I have confidence he can handle conflict. And being busy did not stop him when he needed to step in before. Just as being busy does not delay me more than a few hours at best. You remember and you make time, if you care. But answering silence with a delay only makes impressions much worse.

This is not an act of meanness on my part. I have believed in Zorin OS for a reasonably long time. Since I first joined Linux. As bitter as this medicine is- it is a mix of being fed up and frustrated... Which all I need to do is quietly move on elsewhere... and an Effort To Help.
I would not be surprised if the name Aravisian is being spoken with hate and the most fascinating of descriptions in some back room somewhere. I am ok with that.
But that makes the hard question: Why bother saying anything? I should just leave and mind my own business.
Everybody makes mistakes. I've a slew of them behind me... and they might still haunt me- had someone not Told me it like it is, whether I liked it or not.
I have mistakes to be made in my future- but they will not be the ones I have already made- Because someone cared enough to speak up. Even if I called them names.
Zorins can make mistakes just like Aravisians. Just like Harveys and Swarfs and Carmars... Raise your hand if you are clean of mistakes--
What matters is that we Own Them. Learn from them. And make a decision to be Better, stronger, every day after.
Mistakes don't matter - unless you repeat them.
I await word, too - a member and a part of the Linux Crowd. That word is a response guided by the Zorins Own Hands. I personally have no care at all when Zorin 16 is released. Back in November of last year, I was eager for Zorin 16. Now, it is different.

Well said. I am sure no one expects Azorin or Zorink to pop in every day and flash a smile. But a Busy developer always has time to post an update once a week or once every two weeks- Especially if he has been repeatedly informed that the crowds are asking questions. Six months is out of the question. And we tumbled on this at the release of Zorin 15 from Zorin 12 already before.

Any voice willing to speak Matters.
Silence does not bring understanding, improvements, betterment or learning.
But speaking without fear can raise quality of life.
Free Open Source... Free Open Speech...

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#14

Maybe if somebody could act as a spokesperson for the developers, they could communicate the intentions of the project to one person and trust that the right information would be disseminated and not have to field every question about Zorin 16 etc.

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#15

A good suggestion. This would require that the Zorin Group updates that spokesperson, however, which may not be much different from Zorin posting an update along a roadmap.
I would not consider either the same as fielding every question about Zorin OS 16 - and there may be less questions if there were more answers. If there were updates from Zorin group in say, a Roadmap plan that occurs even every few weeks, those of us actively fielding questions on the forum would have at least that to refer to. As it is, we have been referring only to Rumor and Heresay. Which is a point I made to Artyom in my first PM, and that is a bit of a strain.
But you make a very valid point that if there was to be a lot of questions, no one is expected to sit and answer them all each day. I mean, some curiosities about what Zorin 16 or another release include can reasonably be answered with "wait and see."

But it really helps to have a general idea of what that Wait Time is.

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#16

Although I have in the past suggested people need to show patience and that the end result should be worth the wait, However, I am now another being impacted by the uncertainty. I am thinking to go dual-boot Win10 and Z16 on my main laptop, but am wondering when that may now be possible. Any news right now from the devs would be much appreciated.

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#17

I agree with you guys. Keeping us all in the dark, makes us feel like we're nothing to them. Truth is, when it comes to my situation, they have run out of time.

Soon I'll be buying a new computer with latest tech in it from this year. It will require latest kernal and drivers, OS 15 will not support it, I'll need 16.

And since it's painfully obvious that an OS that was supposed to be released end of last year, is not coming anytime soon, I'm going to be forced to move on.

POP OS will support my new computer, cause it's an updated current OS. Zorin OS is like from 2018.

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#18

Would Ubuntu solve the dilemma? Would that be able to fill-in the gap for why you may need Win 10?

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#19

Not sure if you are suggesting a distro hop. Win10 20H2 Update has been playing stupid and failing. That is why I am thinking to include Z16 as dual-boot. I don't want to go Z15.3 as interim OS, although I don't have shiny new hardware like ST will soon have. I can wait for Z16...but not for ever.

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#20

Last hope:
they did it once again .... and they will hurry up once again

https://zoringroup.com/forum/5/12018/

I am absolutely your opinion, time to say a clearing word is NOW.

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#21

I totally see your point of view, and I tend to agree with it, even to the part of, if you don't have the new shinny machine, you can wait longer, fair enough.

But I felt it very important to point out, that going back to Windows10, should never ever be an option for anybody. Windows10 is the devil's den. Complacency, is giving your soul to that devil.

We all switched from Windows for a good reason, and most of that reason, is to get away from the Microsoft devil, and their sesspool of slew in the den.

Choose any distro, any of them, just not Windows! And stay away from Apple too if you know whats good for you.

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#22

My bad. I thought you were considering Zorin and something else. I didn't use my brain cells to read carefully and realize that you already have Win10. In that case, Ubuntu suggestion is useless.
PS - Better switch away from Windows quickly before ST rains fire & brimstone on you.

#23

@carmar I thought that too. Tried Xubuntu, and it's dog slow in comparison...even on my shiny new hardware. I'm currently downloading the latest pop! OS and going to try that...they even have it packaged with Nvidia drivers :smiley: Until then I haven't even bothered to attempt to boot into Zorin 15.3. I'm back in :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: windows. Yep, I said it. Never got rid of it, but since things have gone the way they have and am unsure of active development on my windows replacement, I'm back in it.

Development is more difficult, since the best way is the linux way, but I am still trying.

This has actually got me down, hence the boycott. I'm not even sure I'd return if and when the devs ever get around to commenting on this. It may be the greatest thing, but now is tarnished by lack of communication, which seems to be a lack in interest of the entire project, forum included.

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#24

Interesting that Ubuntu is still catching up on the newer hardware. My machines are old - desktops are H97M-E and Rampage II - so that could explain why they run better on Linux.
When I do build my next PC, it still won't be the latest and greatest so I guess I'm safe but thanks to your chiming-in, I'll know to definitely not go latest hardware.
I hope Pop OS works out for you. If you feel like it, it would be good to hear back from you if it does work out.

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#25

While we internally set aspirational dates that we aim to release by, our policy is to only "release when ready" so we're not shipping a buggy and substandard product, while also achieving our goals for the new features and improvements we aim to introduce. It's often very difficult to give accurate completion dates on projects as big and complex as operating systems, especially with the ambitious goals and limited resources we have. Even rough ballpark estimates can often be missed, mainly because of show-stopping bugs that take an uncertain – and often lengthy – amount of time to track down and fix, and can cause other bugs to spring up in their place after being fixed. As a result, it's only possible for us to come up with a somewhat accurate release timeframe when most if not all of these show-stopping bugs have been addressed and we are close to a final build. In the past, we've tried to give estimated release dates, but it has always resulted in disappointment when these deadlines were missed.
It's just as frustrating to us to not know when the release will be ready as it is to you, if not more so. Nevertheless, we're focused on delivering the best OS we possibly can, and that takes time and patience, but always ends up being worth the wait :slightly_smiling_face:

On the brighter side of things, we're glad to say that we have just now reached the point where we have addressed most of these issues and can give you a more accurate time frame when you'll be able to run Zorin OS 16 for yourselves. We're aiming to release the Zorin OS 16 Beta by the end of this month/early April. If you wish to be the first to know as soon as it's released, stay tuned to our Blog or sign up to our newsletter here.

1 Like
#26

@AZorin and @zorink,
I appreciate the detailed and fully fleshed PM you sent, Artyom. And this message you post here. You cite occurrences that I can relate to in my own profession. And finding such common ground is excellent for helping to promote understanding between people.

  • lack of sleep: I think that we all know very well I can relate to this.
  • Bugs and glitches that affect other systems: In automotive, it is very similar. Changing a torque value at one end can radically alter the output on the other end. We call this "The Butterfly Effect." In a Mod or a Custom Racer, sometimes parts are not available from a manufacturer and I Must Custom Make Parts using CNC. "Just a grease monkey" is to me no different than "Just a hacker." It takes a lot of calculation, math, drafting and design. And delays can happen not just because of availability, But because I make Mistakes During this Process. Some things get pretty high precision and when the pressure is high, the shop is hot and I'm multi tasking like crazy (Directly observable here on this forum) my humanity rears its head full force. Sometimes, it is ignorance on my part and I did not realize I needed to use a different alloy. I cannot count on both times how many times I have shown a customer a part or fitting I messed up on and we had a good laugh over it. I did not lie. Or Avoid. Or Dodge. Honesty and letting them know Right Away before they ask 'what is taking so long' makes all the difference in the world. Even if I am Only Human.
  • Electrical... Don't get me started... Chasing those bugs down can make me want to curl up on the floor in the fetal position with my thumb in my mouth and cry. And how do I explain that delay? I Do Not want to see a car again I just rolled out of the shop so soon due to an error or oversight on my part.
  • I learned an interesting side effect of making themes. While my output of themes is purely messy novice... The expression and design has helped me to envision Custom Paint and Custom shape designs on cars. I found it frustrating but therapeutic.

I would bet my greasy hat; that you and I are not the only ones who can relate to Pressure, hard work, business, deadlines and delays. That we are not alone in our experiences of finding delays frustrating and frightening.

What you said above here is what Zabadabadoo, Swarfendor, Myself, Zorinantwerp and others have said to the question of "Is there a release date?"

  • Worth the wait
  • Delays can be tough to nail down
  • Wanting to put forth the best product possible.
  • ...And so on.

What I addressed in this thread - And in the Private Messages; is that this sounds like a fine thing only for a moment. I repeat People are not Demanding Solid Set Dates. They Need to be kept informed.
Once you both have caught up on sleep- please read the Actual Print in this thread. I will annotate them here:

  • Inform before they ask.
  • Silence leads to assumptions. Speculation. It leads the imagination. And this will not turn forgiving or positive. A beautifully well-written reply six months late helps no one.
  • Do Not Wait. Waiting until you are very close to release... This is a mistake I know too well and committed also until I learned what a terrible mistake it is. Never wait. Even if you have nothing of value to contribute to the questions; Answer Honestly and Swiftly and Let them know you are On it And You Care. Because silence sounds like lack of caring, lack of anything, really. In spite of relating to your experiences above, I manage to address concerns, try even when I do not know for sure how to help, I take a few minutes even while doing Other Things. I live here. I am not Superman. I am not a genius or special or superhuman; I am just some random guy on the internet. If I can do it, you should make me look like small change. This is not an outrageous demand, clearly; if I and Swarf and Trekker and Zabba and Carmar and jgordon and so many others can do so voluntarily with no benefit to ourselves... Then you whom it does benefit should be more motivated than us.
    Nice guys finish last. I am a Nice Guy. I look mean. But I am a very caring and direct person that tries hard. And I have learned the hard way that people often see 'nice' as exploitable, can walk over, can take advantage of. I learned long ago to "Walk nice but carry a big stick." I speak up.

TL;DR
You waited until the last minute (Too long) to make an appearance, then dodged each issue I raised to you, merely repeating all the things myself and others have said again and again to cover for you and help support. No longer will I do so and a PM from you and this message here tell me clearly to Refer All Inquiries Directly to You from now on. And if I do, I hope you and Kyrill will not repeat the action of ceasing to reply once I ask a Hard Question.
It may seem harsh, but I am a nice guy with a big stick. It may seem mean to kick someone in the butt, but I know that sometimes it is the only way to get them moving.
Zorin OS has, in a variety of tests I have run on 12 and 15, outshone all competition. I have repeatedly supported my belief in the project - But we Need Your Help. I am signed up to the Zorin OS Newsletter and I get a notice from it perhaps once per year. You and I are only fallible humans - but that means We Can Learn. Every Day, we can learn and improve and reexamine ourselves and our assumptions.
I Hope my willingness to speak up and address concerns, though I know they caused you pressure, have an over-all positive effect. I am convinced Zorin 16 will be great. I remain unconvinced that Azorin and ZorinK will Speak Often and no longer dump 'retention' onto those of us shooting into the dark.
But as always, since I can be wrong often enough, I would love to stand corrected.

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#27

We offered to help because we care about what you do tirelessly create, and enjoy the company of the like minded people that contribute to this forum.

I can understand issues with source. Maybe if you allowed several of us to proofread code, for syntax errors, variable and function/method spelling...a function at a time dispersed between individuals... that would leave logic to you. Cause i know hours at a computer and eventually all things run together. This would also allow us to contribute not in just extending the lifetime of a now possibly insecure and dated software, but make it our own because we participated, at least in what may seem like mundane tasks to you, but those of us attempting to learn what you've been doing for years, would be an experience and additional ways to apply what we are learning.

Have people sign confidentiality agreements if you're that worried about it. Besides the legal of it... you take this on yourselves, and we can appreciate that. What you miss is we offer to help, assist in any means possible... because we belive in what you're doing. Plainly, that is volunteers for free work... as we do here... because we believe in this, all of it.

For to long i was a slave to windows and the companies ethic of profits before people. It's very difficult to find the reverse anymore. There are people who want to be dedicated, but expect the same dedication not just in the product, but the communication, service, everything you say you offer. You've stated it in the site as well as here. The next one is important, but don't lose track of the communication and service you so readily state but sparsely supply. Having an alpha to test is not a reward or compensation for delay in communication. I'd rather here that you're having issues, that you need help... that's human... that's humane. And don't be afraid to accept help... we all need it, constantly.

I don't know if this will sway me, especially since i preferred lite to core. But as people, you have an opportunity to save what you started or destroy it. Hire some developers with similar ideals... you may even find them here. Not just developers either, maybe someone that can communicate your difficulties for you... you may even find a volunteer or two here. I've seen a few offer to deal with your public relations. Again, this all goes to what you're willing to do to continue what you created.

Thank you for the opportunity with the alpha. I'd rather hear from you though, as a person talking to a person, not a dev/ceo talking to a customer. Unscripted and real truth. If not for people, what your idea is supposedly about, then your software and idea means squat. Real story.

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#28

Very well said. I cannot even add an agreeing statement to this as it would be redundant.
Have started a "Roadmap" thread here: