Just reading through Budgie's blog post for 2024, and it appears as though they are doing the opposite of XFCE (where they plan on keeping both wayland and x functionality seperately), they are going whole-hog into Wayland with no X alternative when version 10.10 comes out.
In case it wasn't clear to some readers, Budgie 10.10 will be Wayland-only . In git, it has been Wayland-only since July 2024. We will not support both X11 and Wayland.
I haven't been following development of Budgie at all, so maybe this is common knowledge to others, but the complete removal of X as an option seems like a large decision to make when there's clearly issues still needing resolved to make Wayland ready for everyone's daily use.
I made a comment about my concerns about the direction of many things in GnuLinux.
Remember how mad they got at Gnome over LibAdwaita locking things in without readiness?
Then they force Wayland.
Typical. These developers should really do a poll, to find out what the users want/need. Cause its the users at the end of the day, who matter in cases like this. Forcing something on a person that they don't want, is exactly what Windows does. Linux is supposed to be about the people, FOSS, not a developer or business bottom line.
Here's hoping that the Zorin brothers will include X11 as default in OS 18, while allowing for Wayland as an auxiliary option.
I think it'll still be years before x11 completely disappears,maybe.(not meaning on zorin). Maybe by that time Wayland would be working fine ,one can only hope.
Before Wayland came ,there was only x11? So then there was no choice for ppl right. But now we have a choice ,until x11 is gone.
But yea ,if something works, don't force something else on users that doesn't.
Well ... Yes and no. That is a Matter of Implementation. Here on Zorin 17, you have Gnome 43. And older Version, which means the wayland Implementation is old, too. when you look at the up-to-date Version, the Implementation is better. And so it works better. Is it perfect? No. But the Progress increases.
Look at the coming Cosmic Desktop: That is Wayland-only. There is on Xorg Version available at all.
xfce goes a different Way, yes. But they working on Wayland, too. The Implementation is gone far - except a couple of Core Components. and these are the Key. They working in the Principle: It's done, when it's done. They keep Xorg, but we will see how long they will do. Sure, it will not be fast.
I would agree to that.
There was something called ''Mir'' but this wasn't really ... big. It still exists as far as I know but nothing what would play a Role as a real Alternative.
I've been honestly very happy with the wayland experience on 17, so it's not surprising to me more things are going wayland default. I just use xfce mostly though so I don't really get to see everything that goes wrong or right. But as stated prior, newer versions are most likely even better, so perhaps the worry is much less than I have.
Well i really don't understand why people are against wayland, X11 didn't get updated in ages and has security issues. The HP laptop from 11 years ago is running wayland great! it runs even better then when it shipped with Windows 8 and later upgraded to Windows 10. The notebook had such a bad sound, drivers didn't fix it in Windows. In Linux the sounds is amazing and perfect.
Those who follow budgie development have known this was coming. I don't think most users follow development that closely and are rightfully disappointed with upstream changes that affect usage.
I'm running my Solus laptop now and removed plank and replaced it with a dock panel. When the upgrade comes it will be removed anyway due to being an X11 application.
This is commonly stated on the web without support. X11 is updated and currently maintained. The misconception probably stems from that X11 receives updates with bug patches but no new major releases that bring new features.
Not only is Xorg active - they are the very group doing Wayland.
Just like above.
Wayland has security issues.
Everything has security issues.
Yes, security concerns were raised about X11 windowing and input events - which have also been addressed and patched - because as noted above - Xorg are active:
October 29, 2024:
vulnerability in the _XkbSetCompatMap function, identified as CVE-2024-9632. This vulnerability could potentially allow privilege escalation. The issue has been addressed in xwayland 24.1.4 and xorg-server 21.1.14.
April 3, 2024:
CVE-2024-31080: Heap buffer overread/data leakage in ProcXIGetSelectedEvents.
CVE-2024-31081: Heap buffer overread/data leakage in ProcXIPassiveGrabDevice.
CVE-2024-31082: Heap buffer overread/data leakage in ProcAppleDRICreatePixmap.
CVE-2024-31083: Use-after-free in ProcRenderAddGlyphs.These vulnerabilities have been fixed in xwayland 23.2.5 and xorg-server 21.1.12. Notably, the fix for CVE-2024-31083 introduced a regression, which was subsequently resolved in xwayland 23.2.6 and xorg-server 21.1.13.
January 16, 2024:
CVE-2023-6816: Heap buffer overflow in DeviceFocusEvent and ProcXIQueryPointer.
= CVE-2024-0229: Reattaching to a different master device may lead to out-of-bounds memory access.
= CVE-2024-21885: Heap buffer overflow in XISendDeviceHierarchyEvent.
= CVE-2024-21886: Heap buffer overflow in DisableDevice.
= CVE-2024-0409: SELinux context corruption.
CVE-2024-0408: SELinux unlabeled GLX PBuffer.
The problem with the improvements in Wayland: XWayland
Wayland was conceived of without regard for how it would interact with existing software. This is a large factor in why Wayland has essentially sat in slow limbo for over a decade.
You see, if you introduce a new protocol, you must build that protocol adapted to the existing infrastructure.... so that things will work on it. Because if you do not, you place the onus to adapt on all other software developers instead of on the one developer offering a replacement. Not doing so is... nonsensical.
And this is what Wayland did.
Again, this has kept Wayland at the back burner for years. It was utterly unreasonable that as a protocol, it demands that all other developers re-write all their code in order to conform to Wayland.
We all know the reason for the current push toward Wayland. I Won't rehash it here. But this meant finding a way to... make it work.
And the answer was simple: Use X11.
And that is what Wayland is doing. XWayland runs an X server as a compatibility layer to "fix" the things Wayland is not able to do with the current infrastructure.
Wayland was not fixed, not improved - Wayland running X11 alongside of it is what you are seeing.
Which... actually increases the workload. And it begs the question... If you are just running the x-server anyway... what is the point? Why are we doing this again?
"We'll just call it a means of easing the transition."
Ah got it. You mean patching it so that you can continue to pressure all other software developers to scrap their existing code and re-write it to make it Wayland compatible.
This is akin to saying that GnuLinux was "fixed" to replace Windows because it uses WINE.
Well, but this isn't only a Wayland Thing. XWayland is for Programs that simply doesn't have a (good working) Wayland support. So, Developers have here to do something, too. And that newer Standards will replace older one's isn't something fundamental new.
This is why perspectives matter a great deal and why different views being expressed are important to provide balance.
How I express my perspectives probably could stand to have some counterbalance to allow looking at this another way.
My perspective on this is not so different from Windows Fast Boot. By this very name, it implies. It suggests. Windows tells you it boots quickly. But that is not what Windows is actually doing... It does not shut down. It does not boot up and certainly does not alter Windows boot time. It just suspends it with Windows still running. I find that misleading.
And being misleading like that causes problems. A dual boot user can be confused when they cannot seem to reach grub to boot the other OS, unaware that they were misled and Windows never shut down.
Wayland is promoted as the "better option" because it does not use the X-Server. It cuts out that middle man.
But quietly it is using x-server. Behind the scenes. Now you are not only running that middle man, but running Wayland on top of it.
You do not get a notification... or a popup... "Warning, running this software will necessitate running Xwaylands X-Server Protocol"... Users are Misled. Users believe they replaced X-server and they talk about a performance improvement unaware... that they are actually still using X-server.
This does not sit right with me.
If a party needs to mislead or misdirect, they often blame the party they are misdirecting for having to do so. But to me, it raises some fundamental hard questions.
If you say that we must do "the right thing" but the users resist, how right is it to trick the users? Are we really interested in what is right?
Or... getting what we want, not respecting what they want?
That Word ''better'' is a Problem for me. I think that this doesn't suit in this whole discussion in common. Wayland is made for the increasing more modern Hardware - or let me say so: The Intention is, that it is made for the more modern Hardware. So, I wouldn't call it the ''better Option''. I would call it the ''more modern Option''.
The interesting Part will be in the Future: Wayland runs and Xorg is gone. And then will came a new Standard. And then comes the whole Discussion again - but then Wayland is in the ''Xorg'' Position.
I think, here is the Problem that mostly not a real directly Explanation happens. when You would explain it - really expalin it - that should be understandable why it happens.
I agree. It is far too often that people resist out of fear of change. Or tradition, with no real need.
It is important to listen to explanations about adjustments, changes, and improvements. I do mean really listen. Examine their merit.
What I hope for here, as I also make my points is that they too are listened to and weighed for their merit.
Because it is equally true that explanations are a surface coating to convince people to go along with something that they actually do not want. I can list volumes of explanations from Facebook, Google and Microsoft trying to convince the end users to accept the big corporations wants.
And in this... I must remind that the big corporation IBM is involved in this Wayland discussion. Examining these self-interests is just as important to examining the merit of the ideas.
I'm a bit behind on the curve here. How has Wayland improved? Honestly, Wayland on Zorin seems to be pretty decent. It handles window animations well, there are no strange glitches (as there is with X11 on Zorin OS 17), and so on. It makes for a decent desktop experience. But how has it improved? Thanks.
