Flatpaks installation size

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This is one of the bad cases of using Flatpak. But my question is that does Flatpak keep the 951mb of junk on the system or does it get rid of it once the application is installed?

It keep it. As snap and flatpak uses its own libraries etc for each applications you download.

But I think it's an error in that picture.

No it's not. Feel free to check the package out yourself. It's called 'SoundConverter'. Wait WHAT. I was just going to take another screenshot and...
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What? So yesterday, I did download the flatpak package and the app did not open. So I removed it. My guess is that Flatpak didn't remove the dependencies and just removed the application. Well that's not nice.

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All the reason to keep away from snap and flatpak.

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:smiley: Flatpaks are so tempting to use. Seriously. One click and the application is installed. No fuss no nothing. Not even admin password is required. On that note, the PPA packages for Ubuntu 18.04 are very out of date. Some packages are so out of date that it leaves me with no option but to use the Flatpaks. I assume (hope) that I don't have to deal with this on Zorin 16 as well. At least not as much.

I must be a very different kind of person.

I do not feel like I burned too many calories to survive on if I need to click three times on a mouse.

I do not feel like handing control of my system over to another is tempting.

I do not feel like properly installing a package is somehow... too much work. I do not feel like clicking one time as opposed to three times or opposed to throwing in a very easy terminal command is somehow any easier.

Lastly, PPA packages for Bionic are suited to Bionic. Being an earlier version does not make them necessarily out of date. For many, if not most packages, the later version number merely means it is suited to the Focal (or later) Distribution release, but does not contain a slew of new and useful features.
If we actively compare many packages from Bionic and Focal, we will find that their function and performance is identical. It is a fallacy to assume that a later version is always better. It has to do more with applicability and where it is used, far more than how it is used. While the above statement is true for many, it is also true that a later version can contain fixes, updates, improvements and so on- Which is why reading the documentation is the best way to determine if a later version is actually needed, not just looking at the version number.

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I understand your standpoint but let me elaborate my perspective on it. This application that I was trying to install is called SoundConverter. The version included in the Bionic is significantly older and is missing features compared to the up to date version. So I found the Launchpad and was searching for other PPAs that had this package but there were none (Except for the Ubuntu). I found the sourcecode to build it myself but that was even more of a hassle. I had to setup python, etc. Figuring this all out took a solid 30 mins (maybe even more). All in the while, I could've pressed one button and tadaa!
As a matter of fact, also yesterday, I wanted to install Onionshare. The PPA version also was extremely out of date and was missing many features of the new version. Even they themselves were recommending everyone to use the Flatpak version on their website. So I was pushed to using the flatpak version because it is simply very convenient.
In both cases there was no easy terminal command I can throw in to fix all my problems (at least none that I know of).

Could you elaborate on that? How does Flatpak 'Control' the system?

I wonder if the 4.0 .deb file will work for you or not:
http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/s/soundconverter/soundconverter_4.0.0-1_all.deb

Save file in Downloads, then double click to install.

Another good example of this effect is GIMP, which the later version contains fixes and features that I use. The 18.04 repo version is "inferior" to the later version.

As covered above in this very thread - Bloat. Choosing your dependencies for you as well as having less ready-available documentation. Lastly, as you just pointed out in your reply above, you personally just experienced a lack of user choice. You felt pushed toward using Flatpak.
And what good does it do if your package depends on Python, but the EZ-installer sandwhiches in Python as an included dependency - only with that one software. Installing Python to your system fills that dependency for any and all software that would need it, openly. I find this preferable to installing copies of python (Or whatever other dependency) ten times per software.

I cannot express how much I appreciate your presence on the forum. Your ability to calmly examine the sides of the argument, rather than revert to defensiveness is rare- I can admire it in you even as I fail at it, myself.
With Snapd and also in part with Flatpak, I have been watching FOSS being whittled away. Much like Google (Alphabet inc.) having the Mission statement opening "Do No Harm" being removed as their primary mission statement and becoming a minor note at the very bottom of their manifesto- We are in the process of watching control replace FOSS. Microsoft did not start out the way that it did and neither did Linux. It slowly happens over time, due to many facets of psychology and mentality. A developer might get frustrated at having to update his software too often- and seeks a way of controlling it more.
A user might get frustrated and seek an easier way. It can be simple and even give the illusion of being understandable, but the apparent fallacy is in how Self-Driven motivations slowly chip away at Open Source.

It is particularly hard for a user like me that willingly speaks up - often - to defend FOSS against resistance not just from users that demand easy, easy, easy, but from Developers that check their bank account, then lean into the computer to pander to the demands.

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But whatever time saved by Flatpak installation could backfire later :exploding_head: We spent hours to solve the printer problem in Flatpak version of OnlyOffice before we realized that it was due to the design of Flatpak. Because it is run in a sandbox (hence you need no password to install), it could not access our network printer nor file saver, making it useless for us.

As others and I said in another thread, upgrading to Zorin 16 will solve many issues including this PPA question.

The only outdated PPA I faced in Focal was phpMyAdmin. The maintainer of the deb package quit and there is no one seemed to take his place.

I had to install this application from source at GitHub, but it is a very rare case.

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You should have looked for this kind of page, not launchpad.

sudo add-apt-repository ppa:xtradeb/apps

sudo apt update

sudo apt install soundconverter

I just tested. It was done in less than a minute. So I do not understand where this >30 minutes installation time coming from ??

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Oh wow, thanks. I did not manage to find the .deb file for it. I didn't even know I could grab the .deb file from there. Yeah that should do it thank you.

Yeah that's fair. It makes much more sense than installing the dependencies several times for every application.

Thank you that's very nice of you :))

As a long time Windows and closed source/non-libre software I totally agree with you. I always stuck with Windows and easy to use non-libre software with the sole reason of its more convenient.... not realizing that I had no control over my system. But eventually, I realized that I'm at the mercy of the developers so a feature that I like or this version of the app that like could be rendered unusable forcing me to upgrade to the latest version or buy the new app or whatever. Realizing that I had no control over my computer was a rather depressing thought. And now that I exclusively use open source and libre software on all my devices I believe that being in control of our digital devices is significantly more important than them being easy to use. The ease of use and having control and freedom are in a constant tug of war.
But the best thing is that on Linux, we have the option to choose. So we can choose to not use Flatpak/Snapd. Linux lets the user choose what they'll get. If this was Windows, there would be no option to choose. It's their way or no way :smiley:

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I encountered the exact same problem with OnlyOffice :smiley: it also had a lot of trouble opening files from mounted drives. I eventually got rid of it, because I found Libreoffice to be much more better.

Actually that is pretty helpful. I found an app that was supposed to search all the PPAs to find which PPA repository includes an application package. But that did not work. Even there was a searching tool on Launchpad but that did not bring up this PPA repo either.

I wasn't able to find this PPA.

There is also Apt Search command:

This thread reminds me of a Star Trek The Next Generation episode; The Drumhead.

The episode is about a highly respected investigator brought aboard ship to look into what was thought to be an act of sabotage implicating Romulan influence.
Admiral Satie, the investigator, is introduced early in the show in a positive way, even providing some back story about her father and history with the Federation and their numerous accomplishments.
Star Trek... I like the ships. And space battles. But over-all, I'm not much a fan. Bad guys are usually introduced as "bad" (Ferengi, Borg, Species 8472) only later to be softened in one way or another, only to be replaced with some New hardheaded evil alien of the week.
This episode is different. The villain is introduced as a hero, and hailed. With full belief in her position, the villain easily snakes her way into the minds of the crew, creating suspicion, paranoia and division.
It does not matter how the investigation goes - it was Satie's Character to see conspiracies even where there are none. And a lack of evidence is not relevant; she will see what she wants to see.
What amazes me about this portrayal is how easily any of us can relate to this message.
How hard it is to show resistance to what clothes itself in righteousness and justice. Satie even asked Picard at one point what he has to hide that he opposed her continued investigation in spite of having found no evidence. At the end of this show, she even accuses Picard of being one who "consorts with Romulans" in reference to his defence of a half-breed Romulan crew members Rights and Freedom.
This is one Good episode and should be required reading at University.

With Alexa and Siri, with Amazon and Google, with Smart Refrigerators and Cell Phones, we face this Same Invasion in our very own Real Lives. Today. Under the clothes of convenience, we are asked what we have to hide should we resist Googol. Sorry, Google.
The spell is often cast: Fast. Easy. Convenient. Or Righteous, Just or lawful. Google only wants to help us find what we want, right? Resistance suggests that there is something wrong with the one who resists: perhaps he has something to hide or he wouldn't mind Google's spying. Perhaps she is opposed to the Good Things Google wants to Give to us, why else might she be appalled at Google Assistant listening to everything 24/7. These rebels are clearly suspicious.
And lawmakers want to take care of us and keep us safe. Canonical wants us to enjoy Snapd and Flatpak and not have to worry about pesky little things like dependencies, learning or crippling confusing choices.
Fast food, so convenient... So unhealthy.

If there is one thing that I believe is essential to any distribution that seeks to smooth the way for a user to switch from Windows to Linux: Teach.
Teach.
Do not bend toward Easy.
Do not listen to Expectations.
Do not do the work for the user. Teach the user how to use the Tools.
Then, the user can help themselves. Take care of themselves.
Teach.

Because while I am a vocal one, many are not. Many are quietly watching as the day closes in on us more and more that Linux becomes like the Microsoft we left behind. With Canonical hands full on the throttle.

Taha_mcp, when in a bind, for either a specific version of a package or a needed dependency, always use the resource pkgs.org to search up a .deb of what you need. :slight_smile:

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That's very interesting. I was never a fan of star trek so I never knew about this episode. But, it seems interesting so I'll watch the episode when I'll get the chance.

Yeah that is the reality. But at the end of the day we have a choice. The choice to have freedom... but it comes at a cost. Meaning things are going to be less convenient and compatible. Freedom doesn't come free.

But it's not all grim because we still have a choice :smiley: ... if we didn't that would've been a problem.

Yeah I agree. I think no matter how janky the UX, if the user understands it, they can achieve whatever they want and will even prefer it over perfectly optimized UXs that they have no understanding of.

That is very helpful to know. Thank you.

This is exact the reason I build my own computer and prefer open source software. It gives me a feeling of confidence to have a control over the tool which is indispensable for my works.

Of course, this independence also comes with a responsibility. I cannot blame anyone but myself if anything goes wrong. But I think I am old enough to assume such responsibility :wink:

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