but I did once a direct upgrade in linux mint, from mint 18 to 20. the process was straight forward and had just to make some "yes-no" selection and everything was done. the thing in my case is that I don't use so many apps, but the way I configured the apps. especially my developing environment and the compiler/debugger settings, the extensions and the settings for each extension. for me to set those up is more time consuming than fixing broken repos. Also the machine setting, which in my case are not (custom) customized but just the standard setting that zorin and gnome tweak offers. but to redo them every time a new version comes out is just too much time consuming for me, for no reason.
I think the zorin team will take care of this as much as possible since this is a thing that is taking them some time now. and ubuntu as a whole should invest more in this feature, direct update. if microsoft can do that then zorin should too.
or maybe we should really make flatpaks as the standard and then we will have less trouble
Bold mine:
I really doubt it.
That and Snap are NOT the way to go...... following M$ footsteps would be a crazy idea.
actually, to follow some of microsoft's footsteps is a good idea. there are a lot of things that they do right and better than linux. you are always so obsessed with this "freedom" thing that you totally ignore the struggle of developers to make good apps for linux (because of how splitted it is). there is a reason why linux has missing major software, half backed alternatives, and other issues. whatever. what I am saying is stop hating and adapt, get the good things from even your enemy!
The fallacy here is in the assumption that if we oppose Flatpak or Snap, it must be that we Hate Microsoft.
No...
I oppose flatpak and Snap because they are bloated. They often do not work. They are isolated from the system. Snap moreso than Flatpak.
Millions of users employ Linux, from governments, universities to average citizens without missing major software or using Half-Baked Apps.
This, too, is a fallacy, oft repeated without basis.
Wow.
Just... wow.
well, the other guy made the relation flats/snapt with microsoft and hating it. I just said to stop hating.
and I also approached this "freedom thing" from a point view of a developer. there is no single sdk or real linux development environment! the only way to save time, money, and developers freedom is to develop apps as flats or snaps. and even then you have to consider a ton of differences between what major distros use.
dude, you can code for ios, android, web and windows with just one codebase (also for linux with electron, but we know how electrons are loved in the linux community), but we can't use one codebase for all linux (distros). different audio libraries, different system libraries and architectures, different this and that.
the thing with this freedom isn't really much about freedom or doing something better. it's just "I don't like this thing (for no real reason) even though it works, but I am going to create my own thing that will create other issues in the future, just because of freedom".
now, about those missing or half backed app. I have an app that I use on a windows vm. it generates some xlsx files, as a report with some information. non of the windows alternatives can open that file properly. the entire file is like something from another world for them. there are a lot of apps missing. just go to any website that offers you apps to download. it is always the same, one install file for windows and mac, and also smartphone versions of it. and then there is linux. limited on distros, and there are only 3 options: 1) flat or snap, 2) deb file that never updates but you have to download it again and re-install the new version, 3) repos with some commands.
speaking as a developer, I can start developing for any platform I like without any problem, because the platform offers me everything. linux doesn't offer me a sdk. there are specific tools for specific DE's, but nothing that covers all. it is a pain and that's why github is full with project that aren't updated for many years, each being a copy paste of something else. the reason why wine and such exists is not a good thing, it shows that a big problem exists that no one want to talk about in the name of this fake freedom (choosing from different brands of coke is a delusion of choice!)!
I spoke to much and outside the topic of this thread. but I was telling to the other guy to stop being a hater. after all, there is a reason why microsoft is a leader in a lot of things related to computing
Windows dominates the market at between 70% and 90% of the market. A mere 5% or 15% can go to Mac, but there is a lot of money in Mac.
Linux can get 1% of the market - and there is not a lot of money in it.
So developers do tend to neglect Linux. That is not the fault of Linux as much as the developers outside of Linux that do not wish to increase their workload.
Those developers do not care about Snap or Flatpak any more than they do about .deb packages.
The only thing they care about is whether it is financially worth their time and effort to make, yet another, installation package for yet another system.
This is not the case.
Snap does not work far too often. I see no need to re-hash this, as the forum is literally filled with the failings of Snap Packages. From new users having trouble to plenty of links to outside sources bemoaning the breakage.
Saying "for no reason" suggests a Leading Statement; if a person disagrees, they simply claim that the other argument lacks any reason, neglecting the volume of evidence that there is plenty of reason.
I can do this too:
"I do not understand why so many people hate Google for no reason, even though Google works well."
This is highly misleading, as the vast majority of users that speak out against Googles tactics almost always list a large variety of reasons why they are upset with Google.
Clearly the flaw is not in the reasons given, but in the dismissal of them by any opposing viewpoint.
I think when you read this forum and see the variety in preferences for the XFCE desktop or the Gnome desktop or the KDE desktop, you can see there is nothing "fake" about it. There are stark differences that allow different variants of user Control and Freedom of their own desktop. Not having desktops standardized as they are in Windows can be frustrating for some developers, but it is a total boon for Freedom as the development can pace itself based on actual need instead of adherence to someone elses standardized system that can box you in and limit your resources and flexibility.
There is a reason why Microsoft generally has a very low approval rating even among its majority of users.
Microsoft is a leader for the same reason eBay is. Not because they are good at what they do, but because they Secured The Market first.
Once secured, it is remarkably difficult to create competition for it.
Take ebay:
In order to compete, an alternate site must have enough sellers offering affordable goods and enough buyers willing to bid. Most people go to eBay because they know that the sellers are there. So an alternate site won't have many bidders.
Once you have the market secured, it is easy to keep even if you are lousy at it.
It is quite fascinating how people will move over to Linux and immediately complain about how good Microsoft is as soon as something on Linux doesn't work the way they want it to, forgetting the many years they struggled with Microsoft, struggled to get help with issues, struggled with absurd and vague error messages, struggled with installations, blue screen of death, illegal operations and Flat-out Broken standardized packaging systems.
I only recently moved to Linux, so I hold no illusions of the past. I remember it well.
And if you want to then suggest that perhaps the problem was my incompetence:
the problem with linux, and why there are less developers willing to invest in linux (that you admitted that there are missing and half backed apps), is because they have to do everything special for linux.
There are a ton of frameworks out there that let you code with one codebase and distribute between different devices. One code base, that's it. but for linux they have to invest special time, making sure to be available for each of the countless distros, because otherwise the community will boycott that app. Time is money, worth more than this "freedom" of choice. The close (x) button on windows will be always the same size, colour, location. Good luck with that in linux, and by the way, compliments to zorin for archiving this. But even here, what's the selling point of zorin (or any other good distro)? "Windows alike feeling", "Mac alike experience". Everything that you code for windows will works same on every machine running on windows. there is nothing for the developer to worry about, no different DE's, no different libraries, no different anything. Just one standard for all. that saves the developer time. and their app is available on windows with one command and one click.
That can be archived for linux too only with electron app. And even those are missing from the app store, because there is no user base to use them and they have to support different everything. don't make me go into details because I don't care as much now. zorin is working fine, so I don't care about these problems as long as they leave me alone.
I spoke for a specific problem of linux, and that problems affects then almost everything: the lack of developers interest, resulting in lack of app, resulting in lack of users.
again, stop hating on other alternatives or companies. that's childish. I had problems in windows, but I don't hate it. I had problems in linux but I don't hate it. I don't like apple but I don't hate their products. because there is a reason why they are where they are. the only thing I hate is waiting. but patience is a virtue
I understand your reason for saying this, but I made no such admission.
I agree that there are apps for which no direct version has been made for Linux. However, this does not mean those apps are missing as there are plenty of alternatives.
I do not agree with the statement that there are a bunch of "half-baked" apps on Linux. This is because while I have heard the often made claim of it, I have yet to see a solid working example of one. Rather, I may see someone claim an app is half-baked merely to support their claim, when the app is perfectly good. Or perhaps they point to an outdated app, while plenty of good alternative apps are available.
The most important thing is that many people seem to have expectations of having all Direct Windows apps ported directly to Linux, allowing them to use an app they already know and do not need to learn how to use a different app.
This is fine and understandable, but expectations of that sort place too much burden onto others, lifting the personal responsibility off of the original poster. The Poster making this claim is the one who holds the onus to be willing to learn and expand their horizons.
The rest of your post is highly subjective. For example, your demand that the (X) close button be standardized to all look the same. This is unreasonable and does not adhere to most computing, actually - only Windows. I'm not going to debate that with you too much, instead:
Arianit it really sounds like you would be much happier on Windows. That is fine.
Windows is generally a Good Solid Working Operating system. For some, it bears certain traits that they personally find intolerable. The beauty of Linux is that it offers the Freedom of Choice to not have to tolerate that. But if you find it perfectly tolerable, then you can gain access to everything else that Windows has to offer for you as a user.
You must not be a developer. There are varying differences in all applications that run on windows. What you don't see is the underlying backend that deals with hardware configurations. This does have an impact on features, capability and how the application handles everything to do with itself. It was far more difficult to code for windows than linux. In Linux it's graphics are based on two libraries, GTK or QT...outside of that is just a matter of packaging per distro. In Windows it depends on what .net version is installed, what version of openGL and then what capabilities of the hardware. Not all packages in Windows are Java or Python based ( which is the abstraction from the hardware layer a lot of programmers can't live without because they don't want to handle thread calls, resource verification, garbage collection, memory management...and more ). You really should try developing an application, see what goes into it. Since you know everything that is wrong....write it in C++ or C#, that way you can really make it handle the resources correctly and it will be the most efficient thing on any OS.
You must be ignorant to change...how do you deal with getting older? Windows doesn't just work!!! I've seen more BSOD's and installations that wouldn't take because of a missing dependency but there is nothing telling you what is wrong....just a code that the developers can't figure out! Linux gives the opportunity to take control of your system. Is it perfect, Hell No...is it stable....YES. What makes it unstable are users trying to run unsupported hardware, software and make it a windows machine. It's not, may look like it (how pretty?) but will be more secure, stable and efficient than Windows....EVER. Why do you think they are trying to integrate the linux kernel into windows? They are tired of messing it up and want the linux community to support their OS. It's so much better to charge for Windows when they don't have to code the OS anymore....do you see the problem? Probably not. When you go and install Windows again (win11?), read the EULA (End-User License Agreement). Don't just accept it....read it. You won't have to read all that far and you will see exactly why a lot of people are leaving.
There is no "PERFECT" OS in existence. You have to find and use one that appeals to you. Obviously that isn't linux. But you are talking to a wall if you think that your comments will make everyone go back to Windows. There are far worse things than having to troubleshoot something on occasion. This just shows what kind of USER you are...I'm surprised you took the time to download the iso.
I don't understand why you are so obsessed with this "linux vs windows" thing!! I am speaking, from a dev point of view, developing for windows is far easier than for linux. that's a fact that no one can deny! I developed for windows 10 years ago, with windows forms. Everything was taken care for me when it comes to layout (title, 3 buttons, layout). Later I tried wpf, and there things were more dynamic, but out of the box same, everything been taken care for me. Also, windows doesn't have packages, it has dll's. why should packages run on java or python?!! windows dev programming on c#, most of the business apps are made with c#. python isn't something popular in the windows world. man, you are so deluded and obsessed with defending linux when someone mentions a con of it! accept it man, it doesn't kill you. do you see me defending windows? no. I am just mentioning that it is more friendly to make apps for it than linux! install visual studio, select desktop app project with c# and you are good to go. nothing else to worry about!!!
the EULA is not why people are leaving windows (which they are not), it is the hardware support for the insider ring! that made some youtubers angry and now you thing that people are leaving windows in masses! grow up man, no one is leaving windows.
I think all users can enjoy and appreciate healthy debate where users can weigh and measure points for merit and validity.
In that vein, I could easily refute many of your points about developing for Windows - and easily refute your claim that "no one is leaving Windows".
I have also developed for Windows. It's been a while... And back in the day I was a White Hat hacker for Windows, too. I can tell you quite a bit about the security - or lack thereof- of Windows. As well as the fallacy of the current trend toward trying to make the Hardware defend the Operating System.
However, I cannot do that now, because doing so after locking the thread becomes an unfair advantage.
Healthy and spirited debate is good for the mind and the community. It allows us to question our assumptions, uplift each other and to learn.
Resorting to insults and derision is not good for the community.
Please remember to focus on the Ideas, the points and the merit of each, not attack the Person.
NOTE: moved the posts to a topic of their own - they were off topic and the result of the thread closure affects that different topic.
@arianit08 , this thread can be unlocked should you prefer to continue the debate and discussion. Just flag this post or pm any moderator to address concerns and ensure a safe and friendly discussion for everyone.