Gnome, GTK and the rest

Chat about Zorin
30

You have had much more luck than I. I worked for Sega; and for the Home Depot doing the computer support on the Paint machines, and kitchen Design.
There was no two or three problems a year on this and I was one member of about 150 people doing this. Granted, we covered more than 25 computers... but the principle is the same. In fact, I might point out that supporting a fewer number of computers increases the odds of getting through unscathed.

Because on Linux, they have the Option to know more, to seize control of the machine that they, not Microsoft, owns.

Why not? IS there something Wrong with using the terminal? Does it strain something? Does it harm them? Is it somehow exceptionally difficult?
What, really, is the difference between using the Terminal (Other than it being faster, easier and having far more power) and needing to learn how... and using a GUI application and having to learn how?
I repeat my Blender example here. Or how about CAD? Or my mechanical diagnostic software? It all works out of the box, but I have no chance of using any of it without learning all their ins and outs, settings, functions, commands...
At least with the Terminal, I can directly enter any valid command, unlike a GUI where I must seek it out and figure out where it is hidden in some setting, some menu, which button to push - assuming that the GUI app supports that command at all.
Why is there something wrong with the user using the terminal? Where does this rejection come from?

Windows Conditioning? The less control you have, the more they have.

Again, this utter rejection of the CLI, as if it is terrible or wrong or so very hard. It is none of those things. If you are biased against it, fine. But not everyone feels as you do. But if you feel that way - You CAN do most things in Linux without ever opening a terminal and there are users on this very forum who have commented how they have not used the terminal in several years of Linux use.
They always look for and find a GUI that supports what they want to do.
Synaptic.
Software Store.
Screenshooter.
xrandr-GUI
The list goes on.
We encourage the use of the terminal because it is easier and faster and more efficient, productive and helpful.

I don't need to imagine:
Inkscape
Imagemagick
And I didn't break my brain any doing it. And you point out word processors too but I will make the point:
You are going to extremes. The Linux Desktop does NOT put forth only a Text-based Browser, Word Processor or Image editor. So your argument is moot. It puts forth the very things your statements imply are lacking, but aren't.
It is true that visual work would make a visual editor, like Gimp GUI, much easier to use. That doesn't mean you are required to use a visual interface for "apt install gimp".

32

I have answered this:

I disagree- Many users join the forum and say, "I am new." I am a noob"
Yet, they run the commands just fine. Your claim that Newcomers from Windows cannot handle the terminal falls on its face in light of my experiences helping thousands of people on the ZorinGroupforum and the new Zorin Forum.
As well as the occasional else where, like ASKZorin and XFCE forum.

Challenge not accepted. I often give GUI instructions and answers which even a mild peruse through my posts will show. But I have no reason to do as you suggest. Users generally do not balk at the terminal and unlike you and Windows- I do not believe that they are too intellectually deficient to handle it.
We are all better served by each of us using our talents and skills- with the variety and user options that Linux is known for.

33

honestly, I love Zorin OS but I think they can do more with KDE Plasma. For example, ik Cutefish OS is a MacOS copy, but they have cleaned up KDE Plasma a lot!

If Gnome was ever to be replaced in Zorin OS Core, here are my thoughts on which DE should replace.

  1. KDE Plasma
  2. Cosmic
  3. XFCE
  4. Pantheon
  5. Others
34

@tomscharbach, I may be eating crow and groveling you apologies for all the "Why isn't this working" Wifi problems I am seeing lately.

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35

...out of the box. You mean :wink:

Also Sound always works ...out of the box. :disappointed:

To be fair, I wonder the percentage of new installs that come here for help, the percentage that face-palm and go back to Windows and the hopefully vast majority for which it does...work straight out of the box.

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36

Tom has a solid point, there. Doesn't mean I back down on my claims... But it is a solid demonstration of things that should work, not only out of the box... But after multiple attempts to fix it!

37

A point:

If I need to check a users grub file:
"Please enter in terminal sudo nano /etc/default/grub and relay the contents of the following line."

Pretty direct and simple, right?

Doing this the GUI way on Gnome, however, is anything but direct or simple.
And they will need the terminal, anyway.
First... Open the terminal. Enter in sudo -i to elevate to root. Then launch Nautilus from the terminal with nautilus. To do this purely GUI, I would have to first walk the user through all the steps to add python and a nautilus-extension to enable the "Open as Admin" function in the Right Click menu - that Gnome removed. And adding Python is easiest from terminal, too... Pop it open and enter in sudo apt install python. Whereas navigating the Software Store brings its own issues... so let's ignore that hurdle and focus on the issues with Nautilus and Gedit.
But if we go the above route, Gnomes Nautilus is even more confusing...
Because instead of following the directory tree as other file managers do, I cannot just Up Arrow three times to get to / (root) and then move along the path to /etc, then /default...
No, in Nautilus I must move to the Left pane and select Other locations. Then, Computer. It makes no sense and if often leads to confusion. But if we successfully navigate that and we get to /etc/default/grub, double clicking it to open it will open it in Gedit. (I have removed Gedit from my machine)...
Gedit is worse than Nautilus is. If you hit ctrl+f, it pops down a sliding search window that vanishes itself while you are still reading. How many users have complained about this... the search window keeps disappearing. While other Text Editors have a toolbar with a Clearly Marked Back (Undo) button, Gnome removes all this. There is no toolbar and no Undo button. There is a keyboard shortcut, assuming the user knows it (ctrl+z) but if they do not, they may make a mistake, not know how to fix it and I do not know about it because we are going post by post over a net forum.
Gedit is chock-full of the Tools being hidden.

OR

sudo nano /etc/default/grub

Take your pick.

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39

I only very recently moved over to Linux from Windows. I read your words, but I am confused by them.
I mean, I am not some Linux enthusiast that has used Linux all my life and have little experience with Windows. Admittedly, I do not know much about Windows 10. Because everytime I look at it, I find it overwhelming. But prior to Zorin OS, I had never used any Linux Distro in my life.
Even so, using Windows is still fresh in my mind and memory.

And my memories of Windows are very different from what you describe.
I find Windows GUI to be clunky, lacking, inefficient. I often struggled to find settings, how to change things, where to find options and so on. I was constantly looking up "How-To's".
More importantly, troubleshooting on Windows is a tooth-pulling nightmare.
Vague, unhelpful error messages and vague unhelpful tech support.

I often felt just as lost on Windows- but without any knowledge or help with the command prompt, I didn't solve the problems.
I gave up. I either went another way or wiped and reloaded... I spent far more time on Windows giving up on a solution than ever finding one.
At least on Linux, I had phenomenal help with learning the Terminal.

I think you make some strong points, though not necessarily in the same vein that I am taking them.
I firmly believe that Gnome, etc. is headed in the wrong direction.

Let me give you an example: eBay.
eBay was first in the market. Because of this, it is the Dominant online auction. Hands down. The reason for this is very clear and has nothing to do with Brand Loyalty... It is simply because - that is where all the buyers and sellers are.
Attempts to create an alternative competitor to eBay run aground of this problem. It's exceptionally difficult to take a chunk of the market because... Sellers run into too few buyers elsewhere to make enough money to support the effort. Buyers therefore, find too few reliable sellers on those alternative auctions.

Another example: Windows Phone. Microsoft wanted to get in on Androids lucrative market. And let's be honest... MS should have known better... But they tried. And failed.
Because all the apps are on Android. No one wanted to make apps for Windows phone - the audience was too small. The audience was small because there were too few apps.

Gnome is now making that same exact mistake. They wish to emulate the Windows Style Mobile Android Market. They think it is successful, so they should do it, too.
That market is already taken.
Worse still, you cannot run a desktop like a Mobile App Machine.

For Linux to succeed, it must be different. Different from Windows. Different from Mac. And especially, different from Android.

What you suggest is Linux failure - that it's different... I say is its only salvation.

One final point: Gnomes other failing is that it has this "Vision." Fine. The problem is is that its vision is not an Option. Gnome is removing choice and options, forcing all users to align with Gnomes vision, like it or not. The Current Linux Set up includes XFCE, Enlightenment, KDE... It includes OPTIONS and Choices... Gnome wants to do away with all that. Desperately. And that difference of Linux is being threatened, now.
Which means Linux is being threatened because without those things, Linux has no appeal.

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41

This post really nails the question I asked earlier: Is it necessary for Linux to try to draw users for the home desktop?

Yes, Linux lacks the finances and staffing to make a better desktop than Windows or Mac.
Ok well... I think you will find a large number of us do feel that Linux is a better desktop. For a variety of reasons. I think that really, the largest complaint is, by far, lack of proper support on hardware - "out of the the box."
A large part of this is not because of a failing on Linux's part- but on lack of interest from hardware manufacturers to cater to such a small market. A bit like the eBay and Phone OS example, above.

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43

Possibly.
Maybe the topic has also added a small increase to pessimism, as well.

While "fighting" is no fun... I think healthy debates can test our assumptions, ideas, beliefs... These need testing in order to help us confront our biases and open our minds. Like most exercise, it is not always pleasant. But can be very beneficial to our humanity.
But it also comes with a word of caution... That we all can be trapped by, to not over-analyze, too.

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44

When users of perfectly good Win10 machines discover they can't upgrade to Win11 then there will be a percentage that look at ways to keep their hard-earned hardware running with a secure updated OS. Some will look at Linux Desktop OS as an option. I suspect those will be the adventurous ones and maybe have some tech background and have even heard of Linux Desktop.

When you move to a different OS then you can expect a learning curve. I still remember after years of CLI, being presented with this new thing called "Windows" that you controlled with a rodent instead of a keyboard. That was also a learning curve at the time, although you could fallback to the DOS prompt.

Linux Desktop is different from Windows full stop. Pro's and Cons don't really matter. It is whether the consumer user can install Linux on their hardware and then run their apps they need without issues, that is important.

The www now enables help to be administered promptly without need to refer to printed publications etc. I think that without forum's such as this, despite my background, I would have struggled with Linux, and ZorinOS.

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46

In some ways the obscurity of Linux Desktop is a very good thing. Maybe the devs should continue to keep quiet about it. Otherwise Linux Destop users would have to resort to hard-core antivirus and other security measures to counter the scourge of malware attracted by the more "popular" desktop OS.

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47

I use GUI.
I use it quite a lot - and as a themer, that not only shares some of what I create, there are many themes I have and use that no one outside my home has seen. I cannot really explain, in words, how much I appreciate the ability to customize the GUI into amazing ways. That when I load up a machine that I will need to monitor for hours on end, I can tickle my visuals with an interesting desktop... not flat or drab or mundane...
In the Shop, I have my Garage Notebook themes and customers "ooh" and "ahh" and ask how to do it, all the time.
It may seem odd, then, that a themer promotes the CLI.

I use CLI.
Because it is efficient. Effective. Easy. I do not use one exclusively or the other exclusively but rather, the right tool for the job. If the tool fits, use it.
Every now and then, someone flat out refuses to use the terminal. They reject the help desk. It is not often that this happens. I can only name Two Members that ever did and one of them still obligingly used the terminal, albeit complaining all the while.
So did I.
When I first started using Zorin OS, I complained embarrassingly. @swarfendor437 can attest to this. It really goes to show - an initial reaction does not mean we cannot learn.
Why not both?
It does not need to be CLI vs GUI. Both are effective, both have their uses, both apply. Some situations make the CLI preferred. Some make GUI preferred.
For example: Inkscape. The .svg file is a text based image. That is what makes its scalability. I can change the values in an inkscape file, changing the appearance. The same goes for .css. Generally, I make detailed or individual changes to .svg in the GUI. But if I want to batch convert 200 .svg files, do you think resizing each one in GUI will work out?
I enter one CLI command and an entire directory of .svg files can be converted - in any way I want.

Personally, I believe that trying to separate CLI from GUI, set one into opposition with the other, is misleading.
You may prefer one, when you can use it, or prefer one, due to application. And most, by far the vast majority of users that join here or seek the help desk do not act as I once did. They do not complain. They do not refuse the terminal.
Once in a while, one expresses hesitation or concern, not from disgust with the terminal, but fear that they may make a mistake and brick their system.
All they need is a little encouragement. And next thing you know - They did it.

People are more flexible than we think and less presumptuous than we assume. More willing to learn than we give them credit for.
At one time in our western Society, you had to be the Right color or the Right gender to get a job or get married. That's been changing. There are those that may refuse the terminal. Refuse to accept others for being different than them. But we do not pander to them. We continue to promote that one way is not necessarily the only way and certainly not necessarily the right way no matter how much they wish to believe it.
And while we have a long way to go... We have made great strides. Yes, it can be done.

48

I tried Solus a few days ago and read a bit from Joshu Stobl’s blog.

I have always disliked the push to make desktop touch friendly. This was always going to be an unhappy comprise. But this was always the corporate dream – convergence no matter what.

I use a computer, not for watching cat videos or Facebook, but content creation of one form or another. This is “sit forward computing”, rather than “sit back computing”. I use a mouse and keyboard and want the OS to reflect this. I will never be producing anything on a mobile phone or Kindle Fire.

One of the reasons I was attracted to Zorin OS was because it had a “Start Menu”. This was not because it had to be like Windows for me, but because the whole experience scales when I have many apps in regular use. I’ve been using vanilla Gnome for a little while and while it is Ok(ish), I’ve been finding a certain level of psychological stress, with many apps down in the dock, and all I see are icons which I can’t distinguish between. A “Start Menu” solves this.

Personally, I never want Linux to be mainstream. I want to see it grow, but only so that it has a viable ecosystem but remains slightly niche. It it becomes mainstream, it will be taken over, become dumbed-down and corporate. One of the joys I had with Linux recently was that my PC started to feel like my own again, rather than a corporate tool controlled by Microsoft. If there is a price to pay in terms of loss of convenience, then I will be pay it.

While for the time being I am using a Gnome based variant, I hope Solus is successful. If all Gnome is going to allow are a few approved tweaks, then there will be no point in indie distros based on it.

PS.

I use CLI.
Because it is efficient. Effective. Easy.

There's another good reason too. Not too long ago, I had the experience of a new boss who wanted to make his mark. Because I was working on app with a GUI, it meant that he could point to things on the screen without having to understand anything and say "change this" or "change that". This caused me no end of pain. If, however, all there was command line gibberish he wouldn't be able to do that and life would be better.

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49

The way I honestly feel about this is that Gnome is already doing this. Heavily.
I find Corporate Microsoft to be less domineering and controlling then Gnome. At least Microsoft allows Custom Icons and Custom layouts and Themes (Wincustomize, Windowblinds, or... make your own). Gnome does everything it can to stop theming, including Breaking gtk - deliberately - in the past.
I do not use Gnome and I will not use Gnome. XFCE works better, for now... Soon, it too will go Gnome-Clone and I will need to rely on Cinnamon or Enlightenment to keep my desktop a configurable, usable workstation.
Or...

Learn enough about gtk to fork it and make my own.

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50

I don't know enough yet about Gnome, as I've only experienced it as a user. I think it is more of a case that Gnome are more naive than Microsoft and open with their intention for control. In Windows, I can't stand the "Hi :)" (we're you friend) and the psychology that "Windows is all about you". That feels very much like manipulation to me. They do what they like with my PC any way. MS overrides the default apps in Windows and resets your settings whenever they like. In Windows 11, Edge will be default browser and it will be harder to change. But I think it goes much deeper. Windows will a "window" into your life for MS and they will look to moneterize people in the same way that Facebook and Google do.

The one thing I have come to like about Gnome is the few configuration options in Gnome applications. But this is only as a user and in comparison to apps with 100s of options where you end spending all your time setting them. However, I think Gnome really do take things too far with their configuration austerity. Moreover, how buttons are placed on Window title bars is just plain weird. :slight_smile:

XFCE works better, for now

Yeah, I've looked at XFCE as a user. It works but looks dated and there seem to be questions about whether Wayland will ever be supported. I'd be interested to know where XCFE is going.

What I would love is a whole ecosystem of artisans and SME's around Linux. I don't want corporate control, especially as computers are such a big part of my life.

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51

What it looks like is based on the theme, so judging a Desktop Environment by what it looks like, when you can configure how it looks however you want, is not a very good metric.

52

I got drawn into Solus by an old friend from Ultimate Edition who did a lot of artwork. When I started pointing to solutions to this forum I was threatened with banning! That's what you get on there - self-righteous Solus P R I C K S!
And the founder was a plaguerist in respect of wallpaper he had created and admitted this to the late great former moderator datek1! I subsequently removed all Solus Wallpapers I created from my opendesktop.org account.

53

Personally I say its time for a GTK fork.
Ever since Gnome and GTK3 came, its been a mess and its time to bring some sanity back to the linux destop.
I am more than tired of gnomes arbitrary and controlling nonsense.
I think for a distro like zorin the choice is obvious, go KDE.

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54

Can I say, "times infinity" to this?

EDIT:
This link was posted in the FireFox thread. It is a link about Firefox. What I find so interesting about it though, is how much it sounds just like Gnome.

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