The Linux app distribution model is broken
Great point....
Not as the youtuber describes it, however.
Thirty minutes of him talking circles around root causes and laying the blame on Mint. The problem is, he needs to force-fit claims that undercut reality.
LTS means Long Term Support. That is what it means.
Gnome applications are increasingly being made to be tightly integrated into Gnome and Gnome shell - so any distribution that is not using or not fully using Gnome gets shunted to the wayside.
It did not used to be this way and it is Gnome, not Mint, that is seeking heavy handed Microsoft like control over the user, the desktop and the linux share.
Mint is the one standing up to Gnome's Microsoft style Control deliberations for us, and this YouTuber's response is to Blame Mint for not getting down on bent knee and just accepting control.
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Because this is away from the actual XLibre/Wayland Topic from the other Thread, I moved it into a new one.
I saw the Video, too and thought to share it here. So, good Timing from You, hahaha!
That is not quite right. He uses Mint as an Example - and he mentions that, too. He uses Mint as an Example because of a specific Relation. So, it is not ''personal'' if You want so.
My Thoughts to it: I understand the Point of him, even when I wouldn't share it the same Way. The ''Problem'' here is the LTS Model. It is intended to have the Software stack that it has. The Stability Argument seems to be for him only weak. I would disagree on that.
But some Points, I don't find wrong. When we take the Issue Report Link what was shown. When the Program is not maintained anymore, the Link should be removed to Gnome and replaced with one that leads to the Distro-own Issue Report. Because the Program is then in own Responsibility. I think, this is a valid Point.
Where I'm not sure is the Point of Renaming it ... I get the Point of him when You make Changes on the Program that it isn't then the original Program anymore. But I would think that it is a Matter of what is changed and in what Way. but when the Program is no longer under active Support of the original Developer - here in Form of Gnome - the Distro Developer would have the Responsibility anyway for bringing it up.
The ''Uplift'' of Software to the last actively maintained Software Version in an LTS Distro ... I don't think that this is suitable. It is an interesting Idea. You could think that this would happen with a Point Release or so. But I don't think that this would be practical. Because it doesn't only affect a Program itself. It has Dependencies what can affect others what can affect others and so on. I don't think that it would be makeable in a Way that it would be practical to do.
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This is interesting. Just the early stages, but...
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As an advocate of Accessibility first, LCOS fails. Abi Word (part of Gnome Office - the other app being Gnumeric - spreadsheet app) is not compatible with Orca. Why on earth he did not include LibreOffice is a mystery. I guess because it is axMonarchical system, thee won't be access to other applications, like LibreWolf, or Vivaldi.
I just don't like Brave period. Brave Origin might bring improvements, but because of past experience, I just dislike it. Whenever I install a distro, even a VM, these days if I see Firefox, I don't want to waste time disabling telemetry before 'searching' for LibreWolf, so I install Epiphany Browser first, then once LibreWolf is installed I will remove both Epiphany Browser (Web) and the offending pre-packaged browser.
If Zorin does use this as a base after it gets stable & out of beta. They can add to it. The Garuda linux devs, make a firefox based browser that is based on firefox, but hardened, I don't think they will let it be used on other distos, but could try talkng dev to dev. This is the only XLibre OS I know of now, Manjaro has a Cinamin edition coming.
A lot of these issues being talked about are really just a symptom from being a DE (Gnome) that is simply iterating so much so quickly, that it's hard to keep up with a lot of it. I mean, just even versions. We've jumped so many versions in the past few years, whereas how many versions have we jumped in KDE during the same time? 1, MAYBE 2?
There's definitely some things that should maybe change in the situation, but I don't think either party is necessarily "wrong" in this, it's just a stalemate between bleeding edge software development and LTS support (which frankly, Gnome doesn't do LTS at all at this point, causing many of these issues to keep cropping up).
KDE Plasms 5 released in 2014, and has only not long ago upgraded to 6. Meanwhile, in that same time frame, we've had 10 Gnome Versions since only 2020! I personally feel they don't need to keep going at this pace, and it's clearly showing as almost all LTS releases are running into constant hurdles.
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Well having watched KDE lately it feels like they are trying to be a catchup to Gnome. It has felt like a new step iteration every couple of months with version 7 not far off. Why is there this constant need to be bleeding edge when I would be quite happy to stick with 5.27? Why the need for new hardware when the world is running out of resources? Now it's a race to the Moon and Mars to see what a mess 'we' can make of those.
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Like how they all jumped to Wayland, did any DE look at XLibre??? I wan't to find a state of SonicDE on youtube & nothing yet...
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To be fair here: KDE brings with the Point Release of the Desktop more Stuff in it. Not only with a new Main Version. So, there is Progress, too in it even when the Main Version Number isn't changed.
I don't find that interesting at all. It doesn't offer anything special.
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Plasma point releases and Gnome point releases are quite different.
With Plasma point releases, we primarily see fixes, small additions or changes.
With Gnome, we see drastic changes, fast paced, combined with an Extension Ecosystem that is fragile.
They are not actually comparable.
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I don't find them so small. Sure, it depends a bit, yes. Not every Point Release brings a Ton of Stuff. The Gnome Point Releases, I would find here not so massive. Sure, they bring Stuff, too. But not in a Way how KDE handles it.
But that is understandable for me. For that, You have the Gnome Main Release. Because they are way faster, the new Stuff is faster implemented as a new Main Version.
On Plasma new Stuff isn't primary combined only with a new Main Version. Sure, with a new Main Version, new Stuff comes, too. But a Version exists longer and doesn't change so quick - which I find actually good this Way. Here, I don't understand the Gnome Way but it is how it is.
My understanding of how KDE handles this sort of problem is, depending on the bug report and version of the software, I think I read that they autoclose the tickets with a generic message saying to look downstream and see about fixes there if possible. This could be done for Gnome as well, but it doesn't seem like they want to (I've never filed a bug for KDE before, but I have Gnome and XFCE).
The Mint project brings up good points as well, that basically all parents of these LTS distros and others cause the same issues that they appear to be complaining about. If they want one sub-distro to deal with the problem, then the next step would be the distros they're based on... which I highly doubt they're going to request them to do.
Tinfoil hat me would say that they are looking at Mint because they are one of the largest average user distros that do NOT offer Gnome as a DE, yet use parts of Gnome, and they aren't happy about it. Because in both parents, you can use Gnome if you desire. That is completely unfounded and not to be taken too literally, but it's weird that Mint of all distros is being targeted in this. Ubuntu DEFINITELY makes changes to their versions of Gnome Calendar as well.
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He used Mint because of a specific Example to explain his Point of View. And he mentioned Debian and Ubuntu, too. It is not a Conspiracy.
The issue is Long Term Support in my opinion applies only to the operating system/kernel not any installed applications. I see this becoming a problem as more users adopt Linux due to the direction Microsoft is taking Windows in since hackers usually target the lowest hanging fruit when trying to exploit an operating system and out of support obsolete applications would be a target looking for vulnerabilities. Quite frankly I think Linux needs to move away from distribution specific repositories for applications and replace them with Flatpak/SNAP applications that is controlled directly by the developer of the application. That way the user gets the latest supported version of the application and the app developer is solely responsible for bugs/security patches.
"LTS means Long Term Support." For the operating system/kernel not the application the developer never agreed to provide long term support for a specific version you decided to use when you built the LTS version of the Linux distribution. Quite frankly if you hate the direction GNOME is going in then stop using GNOME. GNOME is not the only desktop environment and software in town for the Linux kernel. It seems like Linux developers want to punish their users by creating a bad experience along with a potential future security vulnerability by packaging software versions the developer is no longer maintaining just to spite GNOME.
In addition Linux Mint is not running stock GNOME desktop environment like Ubuntu or Debian they are using a forked version of GNOME called Cinnamon and using libadwaita to force their theme on GNOME applications. So it is possible a lot of these bugs are being caused by their customization's to the desktop environment/application.
Mint doesn't use Gnome, yes. But they use Gnome Programs. And they don't use LibAdwaita. They forked it to LibAdapta which is the same but with Theming Option so that the whole Desktop Theme is more accurate.
Can be but don't have to. There was mentioned that Bugs were fixed but that the Fix is only in a later Version. So, this isn't only the Modifications that the Mint Team does.
The Problem is that a newer Version isn't available on an LTS Release. and because of that, using the menioned Issue Report Links in the used Programs are not a good Idea for no longer supported Program Versions. Here, I would agree to change that. A Link can be offered but then to the Distro-own Bug Report Portal.
That is not quite right. The LTS distro Developer is responsible for the Support. So, fixing Bugs through Backports for Example. That isn't only for the Kernel. That is for everything.
Here is to seperate the actual Developer of the Program and the Distro Developer. The actual Developer can no longer offer Support for a Program - like the Gnome Tools with an older Version - but a LTS Distro developer would take the Responsibility then.
The problem is that is not happening hence the reason GNOME is complaining. My understanding is Ubuntu does not do any kind of back ports and Debian only does back ports for security patches only no bug fixes. I do believe how apps are handled on Linux needs to change for that reason. Hence why I suggested the responsibility for apps working are shifted entirely to the app developer and are installed/updated via Flatpak or SNAP
I believe in the thread of the problem being discussed, Mint's founder Clement states that there was a bug fix that he (or the Mint project as a whole, not too sure with the wording) has applied to their current version of Gnome Calendar (as the Gnome project has deemed the older versions not worth their time, and they are perfectly allowed to have that mentality).
However, if they want total control over what versions are being distributed where and how, they (like Clement stated) are going to want to look into changing the license that they are currently using for their current applications. They could switch over to Flatpak, but the fact remains that if I really wanted to, I can take that source code and redistribute it as I see fit for my "theoretical" distro.
I'm wagering Gnome does NOT want to do that, as it would create huge backlash from the open source community. But it sounds like that's what they really want happening. And they are perfectly able to do that, if they really want. They're kind of tip-toeing around that sore spot.