Marketing/selling bundled third-party FOSS

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I ran into someone who said they wouldn't use Zorin because they think your marketing is dishonest or misleading.

I said, "I don't know what you're talking about, they're quite openly comparing their various editions of the OS, and I don't see anything misleading about it."

And then they pointed me this page:

This talks about the "Professional-grade creative suite" and "advanced productivity tools" that only come with the Pro edition.

But then I find threads like this one:

Most of the stuff you get for going pro involve the custom layouts that are provided. If one were so inclined, they can go and install all the programs that come with the pro version on core and have it functionally be the same, just without the custom layouts.

Is this accurate?

I mean, I guess it might take some work to hand pick all this software - but it's all freely available software?

Because you are effectively selling it as part of your product, right?

Is all of this bundled software available under licenses that allow you to sell it? If so, I don't really see a problem.

But if you're retailing bundled software that isn't licensed to be sold, I could definitely see an issue with that.

I mean products like Kdenlive, GIMP, Inkscape, Blender, Krita, Audacity, Rhythmbox or Handbrake, which are all GPL licensed, GPL being a "contagious" license - if these are part of a product, that product must itself be fully open-source, right?

Perhaps Zorin Pro is fully open-source? I don't even know. Of course then everything would be fine as well.

Either way, I will be buying Zorin Pro, not for the bundled software, or even the desktops - I would be just fine with the Core version, but I love the work you did on the desktop, and I want to support it. :slight_smile:

I'm just wondering if this is all above-board or if maybe your marketing team went just a little bit overboard with that page. :blush:

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Marketing is hard.

When ZorinGroup announced that Zorin OS 16 included the same kernel as Ubuntu 22.04, even leading article writers failed to read - and reported that Zorin OS 16 was based on Ubuntu 22.04.

This happened a second time with Zorin OS 17.

Half-reading, then jumping to a conclusion - this is something that is exceptionally difficult to avoid some readers doing.

All of Zorin OS Pro is fully open source.
Everything bundled is 'allowed' to be sold. And this is true of many GnuLinux distributions which are sold as a product.

Everything Zorin OS Pro includes is free, open source and can be installed by the end user on Core or Lite.
This includes the Layouts - which can be recreated with some configuring and work by the end user.

The business model of Pro:
Zorin OS takes work to make. This is the ZorinGroups full time job, not a side hobby. Sales of Pro ensure the projects continuation and success. users choose Pro to support the project.
And many hours go into curating Pro, meshing all the applications to avoid conflicts or bugs.

Zorin OS Pro includes many professional applications already installed, that are not installed on Core or Lite out of the box.
These are not proprietary software. You will not find Microsoft Word or Adobe Photoshop preinstalled on Zorin OS.
It includes the Open Source alternatives to those softwares.

These are not locked behind a paywall. Any user can install any of them on Core or Lite.
Pro supports the project - not other companies.

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Well explained, thanks !

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Yep, think of PRO like a donation to the dev's. You pay for the convenience, of having the apps installed for you, (what amazing service, total time saver!) as well as having more desktop theme layouts, and all that, for an easy 47 dollar donation. Its a way of saying thank you to the developers.

Look, I'll be honest with you all here. For each version of Windows I bought over the years, it costed far more then 47 dollars, and I was always left with the feeling, I only got 7 dollars of value, with the remaining 93 dollars, down the toilet. Only WinXP & Win7 had any value, remotely close to the money spent.

With Zorin OS, I always feel like were getting more value out of PRO, then what we are paying for it. Does that make sense? I hope so. Anyways, yeah, just consider PRO, as a donation for the Zorin team's hard work. Its in my view, they do more for us, then Microsoft ever did.

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Antivirus, drivers, descent web browser, cleaning utilities ... Even now installing Windows (contained in virtual machine only if needed) is quite painful ! :innocent:

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The original question asked WHAT are the tools, and why are they not listed? If I am buying something, I would expect to know what it is that I am buying.

Also, "based on" I would generally assume to mean "downstream/upstream". ZorinOS does use ubuntu and its packages as its based doesnt it? Or am i wrong in assuming zorin is based on ubuntu when zorin uses the ubuntu packages (not just the package system), and the base OS as its starting point?

In my original tweets, i stated several times that i have no problem with zorin selling their product, its their product to do what they want with. Its absolutely fine and well within any of the licences, to sell FOSS, that isnt the problem.

My only problem is HOW it is sold, and to me, it seems to be being sold in a way where if it was Microsoft or Apple doing the same thing, people would complain that what you get is hidden, and whole websites or subreddits would be put together designed to get people to use the free version of the same product with instructions on how to get the extras for free too.

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From Zorin website i read :

  • 8 Premium desktop layouts
  • Professional-grade creative suite of apps
  • Advanced productivity tools
  • Bundled with alternatives to over $5,000 of professional software
  • Get technical support for installing Zorin OS
  • Contribute to the development of Zorin OS

May i ask which part remains unclear to you ?
Maybe there is confusion with the term "Professional-grade creative suite of apps" ?
Krita, Shotcut, Gimp, Opentoonz, libreoffice, audacity, Natron, Protonmail, Thunderbird, Xournal++, LibreCad, Gimp, Ardour and many more actually are credible alternatives to non-free software ...
Just found details here

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No Problem Thumbs Up GIF

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Video about Zorin and Zorin Pro

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Please see this post that links a list:

Zorin OS is based on Ubuntu. This is covered in almost every article that discusses Zorin OS and extensively on the forum.

I agree. There are many valid concerns with the model.

  • Using the Zorin Upgrader tool; a Pro user is not offered the option to upgrade to the next Core release, only Pro. This locks the end user in.
  • The ZorinGroup operates on a "release when ready" Policy; but this creates a situation where users cannot plan ahead for upcoming releases or can buy Pro very shortly before a major release. A lot of frustration is expressed by users that bought Pro two weeks before the next release and that is an unfair amount of pressure on the end user.
  • The Zorin OS Page does not have an ingredients list. This creates uncertainty about what the buyer is getting.
  • The price of Pro is the Combined Price of Pro Lite and Pro Core. After Zorin 19 is released, will the cost for Pro be reduced given that the ZorinGroup is abandoning Lite?
  • Lack of roadmap, open announcements and general communication. Supporting through Pro feels a bit blind.

What you get with Zorin OS is an ad-free and data/privacy safe experience, whether using a paid or unpaid tier. Because costs are covered by sales of Pro.
And supporting the project allows its stability and long term availability.

In general; I believe that supporting the project financially gives the end users more sway in development. The developers will listen to the paying customer and if it not us... then whose interests are being listened to?
Sadly, with Zorin OS, I often feel that it is not the end users interests being listened to, despite sales of Zorin OS Pro. Actions speak louder than words and Zorin OS feels responsive to Corporate interests more than the interests of the End User.

Why is it that End User feedback is being ignored - even as a very small example - in regards to Balena Etcher? Or much larger; like the dispute over Wayland being set as default prematurely?

It is often on the forum, that supporters of Zorin OS will speculate excuses for the ZorinGroups decisions, even when they are not really defensible. The ZorinGroup has many options and even could and is fully able to expand their team size - but won't.

I will be fair in my assessment of Zorin OS; the good, the bad and the ugly.
Where it shines, I will say so. Where it falls short, I will say so just as enthusiastically.

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As I said

WHAT are the tools

"Professional-grade creative suite of apps" doesnt tell me what they are, neither does "Advanced productivity tools".

Your whole reply seems like its an attack at the question, rather than a genuine attempt to help somebody understand. Especially around the "and many more actually are credible alternatives to non-free software" remark, since i never questioned the validity of the alternatives, nor did i say that non-free software was any better. i Simply asked what was the list of tools

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I read this as "Zorin OS is not based on Ubuntu", am i mistaken? Or are you referring to the specific version of Ubuntu?

As for the rest of what you have said in the reply, I fully agree, and im glad that somebody with more, visibility, on Zorin than i have, has put it in a much better way than i could do.

Lastly, i have seen the apps list now, and it is a well chosen list for the most part (except for virtual box, i would have assumed virt-manager with the in-built kernel kvm modules would have been a better choice).

Thank you for your reply :slight_smile:

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Zorin OS is based on Ubuntu. The article writers read the kernel version and attributed the incorrect release of Ubuntu upon which Zorin OS was based.
For example, Zorin OS 17 was based on Ubuntu 22.04. But since it carried as high a kernel version as Ubuntu 24.04, articles were cllaiming that Zorin OS was based on Ubuntu 24.04 instead of Ubuntu 22.04.

This caused a lot of confusion for end users who were sourcing packages.

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I have to thanks you for your honest talking and response about ZorinOS. I'm thinking about migrate my pro / personal computer on it and that is one of the main reasons i try to spend some time here since few days. I will try to investigate more about the "shadow parts" of the ZorinGroup policy for the development of ZorinOS and the attention they pay to the end users.
As a Debian / Ubuntu user (and others distro in the past), i like to compare with these two models where one is build and maintained by his community and the other one "hold" by a group with (some) contested decisions but which we also probably owe the most famous GNU/Linux distribution - a distribution which would not be what it is without its community, I'm pretty sure of it.
As a GNU/Linux distribution, Debian as my preference of "operating model" - but i do appreciate a lot the effort Ubuntu made to help me and so many others to jump into the free software world - and distribution like Zorin could have this potential too in my opinion - even if i am not myself a big fan of distribtion based on Ubuntu - even the great LinuxMint - i tend to prefer the original one.
So Aravisian, thanks a lot and hope this will clear the situation for Mindplay and Bizzehdee ...

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Sorry if you felt so bizzehdee, it wasn't my intention. I did search for the list of software, gave the link and some examples of software i know or use my self.
I speculated that - perhaps - ZorinOS's "advertisement"-like turn of phrase could possibly be confusing. But was probably wrong.
I'm not yet using Zorin myself (except in virtual machine), I have no interest to defend except perhaps, helping and encouraging new users to favor free software - Zorin may be one of its showcases.

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It is exceptionally difficult to keep advertising concise, retain interest and fully display all that is needed.

The general route is to have the ad short and simplified, with more details available on request.

The Zorin OS webpage is an advertisement. And it adheres to "Short and Interesting." However, navigating the page, one can find the details.
The second layer: How user friendly can navigating a webpage be?

I, personally, do not feel that Zorin OS or ZorinGroup is hiding what Zorin OS offers.

Even a bit of word choice - possibly combined with multiple languages in use, led to misunderstanding in just this very thread: the base of Ubuntu used by Zorin OS.

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May i ask if you use Zorin as daily ? Since when ?

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Due to the release of Zorin OS 18, I am currently using Zorin OS 18 daily. I have installed my own software, my own window manager (fork of XFWM4 that eliminates the margin, thin border issue) and my own fork of GTK4 - along with XFCE.

So I am fielding few Gnome/Gnome extension questions, but still able to supply general Zorin OS responses.

Prior to the 18 OS Beta release, I was using my own custom build; and this build is a Dr. Frankenstein pipe dream of that combined with Zorin OS 18.

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The original question asked WHAT are the tools, and why are they not listed?

Actually, that is not what I asked.

What I did ask is, are they all properly licensed - and I think that's been answered.

I do think it would be nice for transparency if that list of alternatives was linked from the marketing page.

It's probably not a particularly good marketing strategy to just advertise "black box of alternatives to all the products you know" - no one is actually looking for a box of random alternatives, are they?

I think, either someone is looking for a specific, great alternative to a specific app - or for compatibility with their favorite app.

Realistically, there aren't a lot of users interested in a huge pile of random software they don't know, are there? If you actually show them a good alternative to a product they know, they might be more easily swayed.

Anyhow, just my two cents - I think the marketing could be more transparent and more effective by actually disclosing more details.

Plus it would look less like you're trying to mislead or hide something - which clearly is how it looks to some people. :slightly_smiling_face:

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OK! You've mastered, high level !