MOVED: Upgrading Zorin Ultimate & Resultant Discussion

[Aravisian]

@Cederick

But thanks for the personal attack.

@Cederick

Also I never ever said this or ment to express this and I’m confused as of where do you get this expression from.

If you are feeling attacked, this must be addressed.
But please remember that Counter-Attacking is just as unproductive.

It is our duty to ensure a fight does not happen; that the forum is a safe place where contributors can feel comfortable to ask questions, express ideas and opinions and discuss differences.

This is very important. Ideas must be tested for Merit and for Validity. Otherwise, how else can we build a working model to understand the world and how to work the world?

In such: clear definitions are necessary. A Personal or Ad Hominem Attack is performed when a person attempts to invalidate an idea by instead, claiming that something else is wrong with the persons. Fictitious example:
"You cannot understand me because you are stubborn!"
The fallacy here in this example is that 'stubbornness' of the other person may well not be the cause of misunderstanding. It attacks their character but does not necessarily address a productive way of understanding. It makes the other person defensive, instead of open.
Making an attack on an Idea, and opinion or an attitude is different. To say that someones words lack merit, that their idea is silly, etc... These are all acceptable because the person is not being attacked, the idea is. And ideas should be vigorously tested. It is how we learn which ideas have merit and are strong and worthwhile and which are not. It is how we learn.

Some of the reasons you expressed above are valid for many of us. And I pointed this out much earlier that it applies to many of us. Singling yourself out does not change this.
However... The context remains important and I will quote you directly:

@Cederick

One reason less to buy it… At least for me.

Here, you state that not buying Zorin Ultimate is reasoned because you cannot Upgrade Ultimate to the Next Release. You repeatedly reinforce this by stating that it will be "obsolete" quickly and by saying that "each new release cannot be bought." Each of these are valid ideas individually. However, taken all together, it becomes: "I would be willing to buy Ultimate Once, if I was able to upgrade that to each successive release without having to pay again." It is accurate to find that kind of Idea to be Entitled.

At this point, you can say that is not what you meant and that would be valid.
But you cannot say that I am motivated or that 2disbetter is motivated to attack you for personal reasons.
These Personal Accusations are no better than Personal Attacks.
They are unproductive and they heavily increase the likelihood of Anger and Fighting.

@2disbetter

I find it extremely insulting

Because when Both Parties are feeling insulted, then spirited debate has broken down.

Please remember to Step Back from a thread for a moment to gather yourself when you feel the emotion or defensiveness surge. Use that moment to decide the most productive and healthy way to address your disagreements. It is a good habit to have for life and relationships and threads on the net, alike.

[Cederick]

@Aravisian

Here, you state that not buying Zorin Ultimate is reasoned because you cannot Upgrade Ultimate to the Next Release.

In context of my financial situation. You just ripped it out of context again.
That's what I'm complaining about for over 4 posts now. Can't people just let a presonal reason treat as a personal reason and not view it like I trie to throw shade on Zorin or want to enforce a guidline to follow or something?

See:

@Cederick

As I said over and over and over and over. These are personal reasons for me only but sorry for putting my thoughts into words. I should really feel ahamed for contributing in a discussion online by showing that I want to support something but lack the financial background to do so

@Cederick

My reason just was it wouldn’t pay out for me personaly which dosn’t make me an entiteld human being. It is just not something that I can financially justify because even I need too eat food and supporting Zorin while having to pay for every new version makes it less viable to save up for buying the non-free versions once.

@Cederick

It is really “appreciated” and makes me not feel like I’m just a “poor person that deserves hate from random people because he can’t afford and justify this kind of monetary support to something he finds kinda neat but doesn’t really use since he simply hasn’t the money to go ultimate.”

@Cederick

I never said that Ultimate is a must or anything I just said it is even less attractive for me as a product since I could not justify the purchase for myself. That’s all and now this turned into me being pressured to somewhat say something about my finfacial situation and so on just by your claims of implications since you see some agression in that statement when there is none at all.

@Cederick

It had nothing to do with anything I said. It was a comment of something he “implied” by me saying that I don’t feel justified to spend the current price on Zorin Ultimate.

@Cederick

I don’t have an entitled attitude.

@Cederick

I feel like I really have to explain myself here and argue because you “imply” that I am entitled just because I said that “I think it will be obsolete soon and as concequence is not worth it for me” so let me explain it in detail.

The current price of Zorin 15 is worth the same as one week of food or roughly 20% of the total of money that I have per month. I know that I don’t have to tell you about my finances and stuff since it’s private but you just pressured me into a situation where i have to tell you these thing otherwise I would look like an “entitled idiot/person” according to you. So thanks for that.

And the

@Cederick

will get somewhat obsolete pretty fast.

is just my opinion since you currently have to reinstall the whole OS again, make a backup and so on just to benefit from the newest changes.

I have NEVER stated that someone should work for free or anything like this. I was just stating my personal opinon based on my finances and so on.

@Cederick

I’m not saying that but some people just have less money to support a thing that they like so they would have to save up money that is the equivalent of money for one whole week of food to buy something that will get somewhat obsolete pretty fast.

This is just absurd that I have to repeat it over and over and still get these responses and being bashed and shamed because people probably just gloss over what I'm saying and instantly reply in a really agressive or at least angry/hurtful way.

I probably won't comment on any future post or anything similar in the future since this is just really toxic and mean in a lot of ways at least for me it is.

[Aravisian]

@Cederick

You just ripped it out of context again.

I can understand both sides of this.
You asked how it was anyone could have understood a meaning from what you said. So, I showed you what you said that caused that. At that point, we both needed to backtrack to those words. Claiming after doing so, that I am taking your words out of context is in contradiction to what we just discussed.
In the same manner in which you accused me of "treating you like you are dumb" when I needed to explain to you how calling members of the board "fanboys" for posting a legitimate reason to support Zorin is an Ad Hominem attack across four posts. This cannot continue.
A personal reason not to buy something is valid - which has been repeatedly recognized and glossed over by you.
However, it was raised by you before anyone said anything; yet you later claimed that I forced you into it. This is inappropriate.
It makes it impossible to explain anything. I truly hope in future you will think about this.

Cederick, I certainly can understand how you feel, but I do not believe you can justify how you are choosing to act based on how you feel.

Remember: No one is granted the Right to go through life unoffended. As people, we all will occasionally offend somebody at some point, intentionally or not. What really matters is how we treat each other afterward. How willing we are to forgive and move forward.

@Cederick

want to enforce a guidline to follow or something?

In which case, it becomes necessary.
I moved the thread to allow Feedback on the above. But not to engage in further arguing. Whatever the source of Toxicity, there is an action that we can all assuredly agree on to halt it.
This thread is closed.

However, the concept remains free and open: All members should feel free to start a thread in this section to voice concerns over how they are treated. As long as that privilege is not abused, it can be very helpful.

[2disbetter]

@Cederick if you genuinely cannot afford the Ultimate version that is fine. There is nothing wrong with that. Your one sentence suggesting that Ultimate or paying for Zorin OS is a reason not to buy it, doesn’t express a lot. Perhaps if you don’t wish for people to get offensive, then when you say something offensive, you should flesh out your reasoning. I know that I personally would have not have responded the way I did, had you done so.

Your back and forth here, seems to mean, you know what you are doing, and you enjoy the confrontation.

I apologize if you felt personally insulted. That is what you inferred and not what I said.

Have a great day notwithstanding!

[Aravisian]

I had closed this thread, but Swarfendor had re-opened it in order to do a moderator action; I was not aware it was not re-closed.
Due to this- More comments have been made.
For the time being, Leaving the Thread Open on the grounds that closing it now could appear as though one person is being blocked from posting while other members get “the final word.” A bit of Luck.

However, ANY posts that accuse, use Ad Hom arguments or instigate arguing will be dealt with Swiftly and Sharply. At this point, everyone is Fully Aware of the nature of this discussion and fully aware that more fighting will not be tolerated.

[Cederick]

@2disbetter

Your back and forth here, seems to mean, you know what you are doing, and you enjoy the confrontation.

I don't. I just really dislike being treated in a way that makes me actually really sad for no reason that I can really understand because.. Well you already know why I feel like that. And I was raised in a way that I had to stand up for myself if I think something that happens is not something that i deserve. (private stuff and so on)