MOVED: Upgrading Zorin Ultimate & Resultant Discussion

Do you need to pay twice, I thought it would update to 16 for free.

Edit: Looks like I was wrong, sorry !

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One reason less to buy it… At least for me.

Core and Lite are always free. Asking for that which supports development to also be free is just Greedy.
I can see no reason for anyone to believe that Zorin Ultimate should Upgrade For Free. If it will do that, why have it at all? May as well get rid of Ultimate and demand that Artyom and Kyrill Zorin forget the bills and just work for free.

I’m not saying that but some people just have less money to support a thing that they like so they would have to save up money that is the equivalent of money for one whole week of food to buy something that will get somewhat obsolete pretty fast.

I think you make a certain strong point and I have often argued in favor of the idea that Zorin should set up a Patreon account that those of us that do not choose Zorin Ultimate to show support can show support in another way.
But obsolete fast? No. Even Zorin 12 is not obsolete, now. And Most of us are using Zorin 15, now.
Just because a newer version is available does not mean that an older version is rendered obsolete or no good. In fact, Zorin 12 is still preferred for some computers, instead of Zorin 15.

What I have noticed on this and the older forum is that many people will go for Ultimate alternating versions. So they will get Zorin Ultimate 9, then Zorin Core 12, then Ultimate 15 and so on.

But I stand by my point: To think that users should be able to upgrade from Zorin Ultimate 15 to Zorin Ultimate 16 For FREE is to expect the developers to work for free. Would you work for free? Especially with Covid-19 cutting many of our paychecks and as you say, you must save up to buy something you like. Do you think the Zorins must save up to buy things, too?
It’s a slap in the face considering that Core and Lite are Always Free.

I do agree that Zorin 16 is due rather quickly after the release of Zorin 15. This may be due to improvements in how the Zorin Team operates, I do not know.
But Zorin 15 is still good and still will be good for many years, yet. It’s life is far from over, in fact it is not even close to middle aged, yet.

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Or just comparing to Windows which costs more, has higher resource consumption, limits installation to 1-2 machines, takes forever to install, is a pain to troubleshoot, is an easily compromised system, etc.
My take is that it’s worth spending on Zorin.

No need to be a fanboy tbh. Every OS has it’s flaws and use cases.

Windows-hater to be accurate. But whatever floats your boat.

Cederick, making personal attacks against other users does not validate the idea that the Developers are obligated to work for you for free, nor does it validate your entitlement attitude.

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I don’t have an entitled attitude.

So @carmar started to trash Windows for no reason while no one said anyting about Windows in the first place. So that is just a negative comment against a brand or product which in fact is bashing it for no reason while not proving any point. I just pointed that out and in fact did not attack anyone. I just pointed out that if he/she/they don’t need to fanboy if that’s the motivation behind the answers since it won’t prove anything or anything like that. Saying that some experience with something that you had is worse than Zorin does in fact not make everything else objectively better.

And…

I feel like I really have to explain myself here and argue because you “imply” that I am entitled just because I said that “I think it will be obsolete soon and as concequence is not worth it for me” so let me explain it in detail.

The current price of Zorin 15 is worth the same as one week of food or roughly 20% of the total of money that I have per month. I know that I don’t have to tell you about my finances and stuff since it’s private but you just pressured me into a situation where i have to tell you these thing otherwise I would look like an “entitled idiot/person” according to you. So thanks for that.

And the

is just my opinion since you currently have to reinstall the whole OS again, make a backup and so on just to benefit from the newest changes.

I have NEVER stated that someone should work for free or anything like this. I was just stating my personal opinon based on my finances and so on.

And a comment regarding this quote again that I really have to get out:

These are no facts just your opinion so that’s something you should keep in mind. If that is your view/experience on/with Windows than it’s fine but don’t try to state this as facts because it would be in fact spreading misinformation.

I can quote Carmar or you can just scroll up: His “bashing” explained his reasons clearly. You cannot claim it was for “no reason.” It is a valid observation and a comparison.
Just as you saying that all OS’s have their fine points and their flaws is a Valid Observation.
My saying that I disagree with those stating that Zorin should allow Upgrading Ultimate to the next release Is Valid. I gave clear and valid reasons why.

So… Calling any of us “fanboys” is a personal attack, not a valid observation. It is a Logical Fallacy. It was not an (“tbh”) honest observation because whether we are or are not fans of Zorin OS has no bearing on the Validity of the statements that we made.
Have I explained this in a way that helps you to understand?
This forum should be free, as in freedom, as a place to encourage thought, question assumptions and for the exchange of Ideas. Disagreement is a great thing as it Tests Ideas. But personal attacks test patience.
Please Think About This.

Cederick, I am by no means wealthy. I will plainly state that the only reason I never bought Ultimate is because I could not afford it. The same as you describe, I could, technically, spend the money, but if I did, it is money that may not go to a higher priority. In order to make up for that and give back for having been given an OS FOR FREE by the Zorin Team, I have spent the past year attempting to help others troubleshoot their OS. That- is a sense of honor. Which some may claim is worth something in itself.

But consider this: Zorin Ultimate is Not A Necessity. Affordability of Ultimate is not based on Need, but on Desire. Which reduces how much any of us are willing to spend on it.If it is a need, we are willing to Spend More because we have to. We won’t be happy about it. But Zorin Ultimate is a Want, not a need.
You and I Both Do Get Zorin for FREE. Your Need and My Need is fulfilled- without spending any money at all.
Whereas Windows makes it a Need- One that Costs and comes with bloat- which Carmar justly made the comparison of- And why anyone demanding Ultimate for Free is nonsense.
So, again, all of our finances are Not Relevant because Zorin OS is FREE.
Ultimate is not a Need.
I will remind you that you called us “fanboys” for this.

And lastly…

I disagree again.
It is not spreading misinformation, nor is it not factual for Carmar to state Windows Costs More.

  • It is factual that Windows Does Cost More.

  • It is factual that Windows has Higher Resource Consumption. This is not opionion, this is well established Fact. Microsoft knows it, too.

  • Installation is limited in the number of machines- This is factual information.

  • It is factual that Windows is easily compromised. It’s a common topic of the need for heavy security on Windows and anti-virus as opposed to Linux. How can you claim this is misinformation?

  • Windows is much harder to troubleshoot. Linux has a Terminal Emulator interface which tells you if packages or dependencies are missing or what command to enter much of the time. Whereas with Windows you just get an obscure error like “This program has performed an illegal operation” or “error 0x0003x010”.
    How do you troubleshoot that? I would somewhat agree with you that this may fall under “opinion” but I would NOT refer to it as spreading misinformation.

Now, in this post, I pretty much confronted everything you have said and told you that I think you are wrong every step of the way. I am sorry for that- But your Claims needed confrontation because… I found them wrong every step of the way and I prefer to confront the spreading of misinformation.

Well I never said anything against these things in particular I was just talking about:

  1. Depends on the hardware.
  2. Depends on your past experience with said OS.
  3. Depends on what you use your ststem for and how you do it. Just pasting things in the terminal without knowing what you do has the same effect as downloading “somesong.exe”.

And stating oppinons as facts is in fact spreading misinformation since you state an opinion as a fact.

I never said that Ultimate is a must or anything I just said it is even less attractive for me as a product since I could not justify the purchase for myself. That’s all and now this turned into me being pressured to somewhat say something about my finfacial situation and so on just by your claims of implications since you see some agression in that statement when there is none at all.

And it’s fine with me that you do what you do to support something you really like but I don’t have to do the same and you don’t have to justify your choice in what you’re doing. It just makes you seem less confident with said choice.

That in fact is wrong since i never adressed you and was only talking about the tone in @carmar reply by attacking another product that never got mentioned. And the only reason for that could be to weaken my statement or to make me angry in some what because it has nothing to do with the actual conversation on here.

This should not need another comment after what i stated before. But I will happily repeat myself if needed. But tl;dr it was no attack not even a personal one since I said that:

So my comment is invalid if it wasn’t the case. But @carmar acutally confirmed it by this reply:

So yeah… No futher comment needed on that one.

No need for a confirmation to help my self-esteem but thanks anyways.

It had nothing to do with anything I said. It was a comment of something he “implied” by me saying that I don’t feel justified to spend the current price on Zorin Ultimate. So it was blind bashing and not vaild.

Edit: @Aravisian please stop implying more thing into what I say that even I could do to just tell me that “It is not my fault for being an idiot or feeling bad about something it’s society”. It is pointless, annoying, hurtful (since you treat me as if I was dumb) and it is also something I want to never ever see in my inbox again. Let alone any message from you since it is just a toxic and hurtful behaviour.

You also completly ignore 90% of what I said in my reply by hyperfocusing on that point. ANd yes it is not ok from you to pressure me into revelaing personal information so i don’t look bad by your implications. That is 100% not ok and you can’t help/improve your conscience about that by trying to justify your actions. Nothing can justify this but I guess you rather write more and longert text to deal with it in that way instead of just giving a simple apology.

It was a personal attack for the reasons that I politely explained to you:
Claiming any of us “fanboys” for making comparisons or Valid Observations or for disagreeing with your statements is Not Valid -it is Ad hominem. You are not attacking the Idea- You are attacking the Character of the person.

I did not ignore your reply- I quoted each part and pointed out the flaws in them, just as I am doing now.
The rest of your post is not worth replying to. If my being courteous and trying to help you to understand other viewpoints is “toxic and Hurtful” Then I will do this, Instead;

This is an Official Moderator Warning:
Stop the Ad Hominem Personal Attacks. You cannot Justify them, nor claim that your target “proved” them for you, nor explain it away by claiming I was hurtful to you. This argument ends Now.
You will behave as set by the Guidelines of the forum or you will not be welcome here.
Clear.

Aravisian, I find it unusally strange that you are a moderator but clearly wanted to engage in an arguement with Cederick. I would rather you represent this forum in a more professional manner.

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Privacy, I disagree with your perception, however - I will support your opinion that you can express to the administrators.
The reason I disagree with you is this:
Cederick used an Ad hom argument- which was addressed. I then tried on several posts to explain this to Cederick- this is not the same thing as “wanting to engage in an argument.” It is being argued with when you explain something to a person.
If you try to explain something to a person that repeatedly rejects it- Well…
I then tried a polite and friendly Private message- and was told that such was “toxic.”
When my effort to reach a person is spun into such a thing, it becomes clear that I cannot reason with the person- At which point I closed the argument down entirely.
Professionalism does not mean taking abuse. It does not mean closing something down without trying to explain things first, or correct the actions or engage without being authoritative. I engaged as a member, first.

If you disagree, it may be perfectly valid and please send a PM to Azorin or Zorink and ask your concerns to be addressed. I am not perfect and as all humans, I am susceptible to bias.

I have moved the Off-Topic argument to here. Delayed due to pending observations.

In hindsight and reading over it again, I can reach a simple conclusion:

If I had worded this differently, say as this:

Remember to attack the idea, not the person

Right at the outset, it may have made a difference to the outcome.
I have moved this to “Feedback” as it qualifies as feedback for the board.
Member Privacy was quite right to publicly address concerns. Public and Clear accountability is crucial. Having it in PM or behind closed doors breeds corruption and favoritism.
As I could justify based on what I can point out was wrong in another person, it becomes sadly easy to overlook where I was wrong.
Accountability requires a fair and balanced viewing. I think arguing over topics in spirited debate is Great for Forums of all ages and topics. It allows us to explore ideas and to question assumptions. To broaden our horizons and expand our thinking. But we always must remember to test our ideas, not eachothers patience. This applies to me as much as anyone and I am not above it.
My apologies to all for the disruption. I spoke from how I believe, but I can learn to speak more clearly and express and test ideas in a way to elicit a better reaction.

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Seriously? Paying the people who create the software you’re using is a reason not to buy something? Software developer / engineer is the only profession in the world where people think this mindset is ok or appropriate.

I find it extremely insulting. Check your entitlement. Software doesn’t grow on trees, and is one of the most difficult things to do right. Especially as it comes to low level and operating systems.

It’s perfectly fine for anyone to use the free editions of Zorin OS (Core, Lite, and Education) if they can’t afford the Ultimate edition, or if they otherwise don’t want to. Zorin OS Ultimate is not prefectly suited for everyone, just like any product.

We created the free editions to help spread Zorin OS to as many people as possible and we’re happy to see more people using Zorin OS, regardless of whether they paid or not :smiley:

Of course, we greatly appreciate when someone purchases a copy of Zorin OS Ultimate, as it helps to support the project and fund the development. However, there’s nothing wrong or entitled about not paying and using a free edition.

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My reason just was it wouldn’t pay out for me personaly which dosn’t make me an entiteld human being. It is just not something that I can financially justify because even I need too eat food and supporting Zorin while having to pay for every new version makes it less viable to save up for buying the non-free versions once. But thanks for the personal attack. It is really “appreciated” and makes me not feel like I’m just a “poor person that deserves hate from random people because he can’t afford and justify this kind of monetary support to something he finds kinda neat but doesn’t really use since he simply hasn’t the money to go ultimate.”

As I said over and over and over and over. These are personal reasons for me only but sorry for putting my thoughts into words. I should really feel ahamed for contributing in a discussion online by showing that I want to support something but lack the financial background to do so. And double sorry for being a non native speaker but still having my words torn into shreds because I’m something you so clearly wanted to and did criticise.

Edit:

Also I never ever said this or ment to express this and I’m confused as of where do you get this expression from.

@Cederick

It’s completely understandable that you may not have the ability to financially support Zorin OS. Many people are in the same situation as you, and that’s okay. This is why a free option exists.

That said, money is not the only way you can support a platform or project. If you find value in Zorin OS and want to contribute, the most valuable commodity you have is your time. By investing your time, you can support Zorin in ways that align with your strengths.

There are many examples of this. First, if you are a power-user, you can answer support questions on this forum. Also, if you are a developer, you can help fix bugs or write features or plugins that enhance the user experience. If you don’t have these skills, you can assist with documentation or translations (especially if English is your second language), or you can even evangelize Zorin to other users. And finally, you can always discover different ways to contribute; you are only limited by your imagination.

Anyway, I’m not sure if any of this helps, but just know that anything you can give back to the community is valuable and appreciated.

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