I was hoping to comment on a tangent now closed. The whole ethos of GNU/Linux is that the foundation of it was to write code freely with anyone wishing to alter by either removing code and replacing it with something better or adding to it, provided the changes are shared with the original writers of the code. This ceases to exist when Corporate entities take control and force its decisions on users and the wider community. Dropping xfce by Zorin is not one of those Corporate entities. Canonical, who bring into disrepute the name of Ubuntu which means translated into English "We are because of you". When Corporates force users to use systems in certain ways, they are breaking the ecosystem of what developers and users require to produce a stable system. Outside of the "pure" developers of GNU/Linux we have seen Microsoft submit rubbish code for USB drivers for GNU/Linux. Let's not forget that senior representatives of Microsoft have deemed Linux a Cancer. Basically, don't fix what ain't broke. In respect of xfce being dropped, remember there are only two devs for Zorin and unfortunately, Corporates aren't interested in preventing e-waste so Team Zorin I suspect are trying to gain leverage in the Corporate arena. Once that happens financial income can mean employing more devs and in turn provide support for a lightweight OS, whatever form that might be, (LXQt, LXDE, xfce, TrinityDE or MATE, or even a lightweight Plasma Desktop akin to PCLinuxOS or Q4OS or IceWM like Antix) is up to the two man team. Let's not forget that, a two man team.
Stating that users should not provide feedback or to protest changes made by a developer is antithetical to most development in general, even.
Calling user feedback "Drama" is dismissive and seeks to remove the user from an equation that is utterly dependent on the user.
It tells members that their feedback is unwelcome. This is untenable and indefensible.
This does not mean that all feedback is welcome, no matter what or that all feedback can be implemented. Discouraging ideas, feedback and suggestions can not ever be an answer.
And... no. Companies, developers, makers, creators etc cannot do whatever they want. This statement is fundamentally wrong on a great many levels.
They are always beholden to the user base.
Importantly, users do not have unlimited options to try out should a developer get restrictive or forceful.
Take Microsoft as an example: While Mac OS and GnuLinux do exist as options, transitioning to them can be a difficult path, to the point of not being a feasible alternative for a large number of people. Hardware is built for Microsoft and many companies require their employees to use Windows or Windows-only applications. No, users most often cannot just use something else, like it is that easy and be assured of painlessly getting the same expected results.
What you say is correct. But ... my standpoint is in relation to GNU/Linux users, not necessarily including migrators.
Having just poured over this I can see why Zorin might be moving away from xfce!
And what is Your Conclusion from that related to Zorin?
all this is certainly interesting and i understand a fair bit of it .
to me ... an average Joe of linux , i'm just eternally grateful for developers who do this (speaking of linux now) , mostly in their free time and for free. Cause they LOVE and want to protect opensource.
PS : my take on MS lately "incorporating" linux into windows ...i don't like it .
MS go %$%^# yourself pls 
go melt apple into your system ? 
This is true. As Swarfendor pointed out, the corporate minded of the developers seem the most likely to try to serve self-interest.
Everyone is being pressured to adopt Wayland... Zorin OS 17 Core defaults to it.
It would appear that a lot of work is being made to make Wayland a potential way forward for xfce and might mean dropping some core elements in xfce. They already admit that screenshot is problematical. I still find it ridiculous that Linus Torvalds allows Microsoft to contribute code when they donated money to a right-wing organisation that paid a software engineer to see if Torvalds had stolen Unix code. When the engineer reported that there was no Unix code present he was ordered to look again. This was from an article in Linux User & Developer magazine some years ago.
from stuff i read on this forum . it seems wayland is , problematic, yes ?
so why shove it down users throats when it's not tested and proven solid for everydays use ?
i'm not an expert on this , this is just how it looks like to me ...
Exactly! And it appears with Zorin 17 r2 Core, the default is now xorg and not Wayland.
Some people say xorg is unsafe and it's not actively developed, unlike wayland. But xorg is a stable product that works and is ready for the average user, wayland is not
Security and high-resolution displays? I've got two things to say about this:
- As long as you use what's in the repos, you should be fine. As for flatpaks and snaps, don't just download everything you see... this is true to all systems with app stores, including android. And when downloading apps from 3rd party websites, you should always check you can trust the source and the app, as there can be much more severe malware than what wayland may be able to protect you from. And when it comes to high resolution screens, most people work on screens of no more than 1080p 60Hz, which has no problem in xorg; wayland could stay as an option for those with unusual setups, but definitely should not be the default yet.
- If the problem with xorg was that it's not very actively mantained and wayland has better support for some specific hardware and better security, wouldn't it be better to fork xorg and implement all those improvements in a base that is already stable and works fine instead of trying to reinvent the wheel? Canonical forked debian, modified it to their liking and distribute it as their own thing, which many prefer over debian because it has newer software, custom kernels that are more actively updated, etc., so why is xorg any different that it has to be abandoned by distros for adopting an alternative that isn't ready yet instead of improving what already works?
I would think that they develop it until it works. There stands a Sentence: ''It is not clear yet which Xfce release will target a complete Xfce Wayland transition (or if such a transition will happen at all).''
Problematic ... Yes, in some kind of Way it is. Especially with Nvidia Cards. There is Progress but this is for Zorin unfortunately not so relevant at this Moment because the Gnome Base is an older One.
Being glued to 16.3 I was not aware that 17r2 Core had default switched from Wayland to Xorg. That may help, as I was beginning to get irritated asking countless users if they had tried Xorg instead of Wayland on login. Be interesting to see if issues decrease as a result of the change of this default setting.
Long term problematic.
The problem is in how Wayland is implemented. It is not a matter of just patching or writing code to enable Wayland to do the things it cannot do... The way Wayland is built inhibits it from being capable of doing what it cannot do.
The only way to fix what is broken with Wayland is to start over from scratch and rebuild it from the ground up.
The work-around for this is using XWayland to provide the Xorg xserver functions while using Wayland for other tasks. At which point, why bother? Would it not be simpler to just use Xorg Xserver from the start and not add the complication of Wayland and switching back and forth? (Answer: YES.)
Wayland has been in development for a long time, well over a decade. Most often it sat stagnant as it was abandoned repeatedly (yet people think it is new and stable and well maintained? NOT!) due to it being fundamentally flawed, but it keeps getting picked back up because Corporate Interests find Waylands fundamental flaws appealing.
Waylands flaws mean users lose out on functions and features we currently have... Which corporations would love to trim that fat away asserting less user control and options. Limiting and restricting user control grants greater developer or company or corporate control.
The trick to this is that Corporate pressure for Wayland is not enough. What they needed was Users voicing support for Wayland.
So, the P.R. campaign began: Promoting Wayland as "Faster. Better. More Modern" to get the user base to accept and think they want Wayland. Promoting Wayland in articles and by getting developers on board to tell people Wayland is "better and modern" in spite of its severe shortcomings, security flaws and advanced age...
...has worked like a charm.
Many users bought it hook, line and sinker even as the older and knowledgeable users protested, sounded the alarm and pointed to Waylands stark and glaring flaws. The protestors were labeled as "alarmists" and "doomsayers" and Wayland labeled as the fix.
And they pushed Wayland through and now it is default on many distros and it is broken. It does not work with graphics drivers. It does not work with many applications. It cannot handle protocol switching. Though it is default, many distros fall back to Xorg Xserver if the user has Nvidia graphics, causing many users to think they are using Wayland when they aren't and they get online and boast about how great Wayland works. Brilliant.
And for those using Wayland, the devs patched it up with XWayland to make it use Xserver; which still does not work because the Wayland components still balk.
They won't start over and rebuild Wayland, so they will continue to push claims.
The biggest problem with Wayland is not just that it exists. But that the public was convinced that it should exist.
Going back to the xfce article they have outlined that they will not use XWayland but wlroots instead!
like windows eh ...?
edit : my bad ...we don't dis windows do we , i just couldn't resist lol
And the cause? Buggy AV software update! Ironically the software company goes by the name "CrowdStrike"! Well they certainly hit a lot of crowds today. No doubt if companies had been running GNU/Linux servers this would not have occurred. As my company slogan says, " Don't think different ... Think Better!"
Yep, you can guess how my day went, it truly was a cascading event. I leave in the morning to do some work. I start mowing, then a sudden bang sound ensues, and the engine dies. The strangest thing happened, despite mowing on flat ground, not hitting any large objects, the bottom edge lip of the cutting deck, (which is so strong I couldn't bend it with human power) suddenly folded upwards, and made contact with the blade.
This resulted in the flywheel key being sheered throwing the timing off, and shutting the engine down for good until I can fix it. Upon closer inspection, I did discover that the part of the edge of the deck which folded up, did so, because its split right there, aka permanent damage. So that mower is out of commission until I can fix it, good thing I have other mowers!
So after a long day working in the hot heat, I get back home, come inside to get cool and washed up, getting what felt like 5 pounds of dirt washed off me, I go to the computer, and find out that the country went to heck because of CrowdStrike. Imagine my surprise that such a thing could happen, so many services disrupted, so many companies brought to their knees.
If there is any proof that we are over-dependent on computers and the digital world, this is it. A grocery store can't even function without power, and a working internet connection these days. So many systems, so many companies, so many peoples lives got disrupted that day. Other then my mower going to garbage, the only other thing that effected me from CrowdStrike disaster, was a package I was supposed to receive yesterday, got delayed to next week, despite being 2nd day air.
If there is anything that this proves, is we are far too reliant on our technology, and we also need to strengthen our technology, to prevent this from happening again. Do you realize how easy it would be for a savvy hacker to bring down our country using that method, or taking advantage of it? If a few bugs in code, uploaded through a software update can do this, it just shows that our tech sector is not robust enough.
You shouldn't be able to bring down a large percentage of the country running Windows systems, over a few lines of code, that are bugged. There is something truly and fundamentally flawed about the the way we do things in the tech sector, especially involving a cloud service named CrowdStrike. I mean honestly!
I always hear on the news, how politicians say they are going to do this, they are going to do that. And whats the common thread with them all, they are so old, that they missed the computer age by miles, from when they were born, they don't understand the issues we face. Point is, this should have never have happened! What I want to hear from our politicians, is how they are going to strengthen our technology sector.
I'm tired of excuses, I demand action from our countries leadership. In an ideal world, there should never be a time when a cloud based updating service, causes a complete technological breakdown, of our municipalities and services. I honestly feel like I am living in an apocalypse right now.
I don't care hearing about the local potluck in the community, who cares! I want to hear news on what is going to be done, to prevent this utter disaster from happening again! No more excuses, just get it done. And maybe if people are under threat of being arrested for bringing down a whole tech industry, they won't be so quick to let buggy code happen again. There has to be real punishment for the crime.
Because the reality is, if a civilian did this, they would go to prison for years, as a malicious hacker. But CrowdStrike can go ooppsies, we did a thing hehe, sorry about that, forgive us, we had cheeto fingers, lets just fix that for ya. Oh right, you mean the literal millions of people you effected with your amateur stunt? You know what I think CrowdStrike, ya should go back to collage to take a refresher course on computer science.
I'm so tired of people who bring down our entire system, getting a slap on the wrist. There needs to be real punishment, or nobody will ever learn. If I was the owner of the company, I'd fire all involved, and bring in new people.
My concern with the outage is that in London one of the hospitals had to cancel all Radiotherapy sessions for cancer patients. I was also concerned about if my daughter who has Lupus will nit get her prescription on time. The Global Payroll Association representing Payroll providers have announced that employees will not get paid for some time, especially weekly paid workers. I am reminded of a cr*p upgrade to F-Secure AntiVirus. The install went fine but the GUI was invisible. When I rang up to complain the woman who answered was clearly born with a silver spoon in her mouth said in her poshest of British Accents. Oh, yes, our lead engineer has reported this issue." I asked for a refund which I duly got. The principal reason behind me going with that company is they were the first to discover the MMS malware that could brick your smartphone even if you rejected it and no recourse for a replacement handset from the phone manufacturer. The only prevention at that time was to walk far enough away from the originator of the malware for it to disappear. As Justin Walker has said many times, Politicians can't offer solutions, only hope. George Washington won the Civil War because he recognised the US was a sovereign state and printed the "green back dollar". Had he been funded by British banks he would have been bled dry with interest rates of 30%. Justin Walker's uncle was a director at the Bank of England. When he asked Justin what he was thinking of becoming when he entered the world of work, he told his uncle he was considering becoming a Newspaper journalist. He advised him not to as the banks control the media! In England, the Governor of the Bank of England flies to Switzerland every 6 weeks for his instructions from the Head of the Bank for International Settlements. Lloyd George in the first world war had the Treasury, not the Bank of England, issued the Bradbury Pound in £1 and 10 shillings notes. Every nation in the World is a sovereign nation and can print its own money based on the net worth of the population and does not have to rely on Central Banks who set the rates to keep the masses poor.