I do not "hate" an operating system (probably because I've been working with OS'es for 30 years), it is a piece of tech.
Use it, or don't, there are downsides, and upsides.
Zorin is excellent as a Linux distro, I will highly recommend it to anyone looking for that.
But comments like:
" And I absolutely cannot wait to scrape the pile of Microsoft Excrement off my new machine."
...is a good example of why I never ever recommend anyone to sign up to some Linux forums.
The zealot/jihad mode is disturbing.
All that you list is personal opinions/feelings, and what looks to me like lack of knowledge.
Adjusting: Yeah, I had to adjust noting after installing Zorin (sarcasm).
File Management: Yeah, there is not like there is x number of File Managers out there for Linux (personally I prefer Caja).
-Rollback/Upgrades: WRONG! Windows never ever forces you to reboot, or upgrade things you don't want. Btw, dependency hell is of course unknown in the Linux world (sarcasm, again).
But, from the context of your your answer I kind of agree with StarTrekker, you are obviously the gate keeper, and some of us "Will not pass!"
After Moderation Consideration: Thread Locked due to the New Member immediately resorting to Ad Hominem attacks.
The O.P. can PM me to request it be unlocked.
It is quite debatable as to whether Windows Reboots without user permission (It does) or upgrades without user consent (It does), but these things cannot be hashed out and debated when a user opts to immediately resort to attacking the character of the opponent, instead of the idea.
I am not sure about the thread closure..
But since I could not post there,
I found it fit to post the reply here..
First, All of your (@Aravisian's) claims don't look right to me..
Whenever one does a fresh installation of any operating system, they always change its settings to make themselves comfortable with it. And it is not unique to Windows. Even Linux users change the settings before they start using it. The fact that you needed to modify the registry doesn't matter either. In Linux it is too often that we need to use the dconf-editor or access some root file and change it in order to align the settings to our preferences.
Feature removal and addition is common in every software update. This too is not unique to Windows only. Every other software does this...Linux too.
When it comes to how many features were removed from Windows in Windows 11; It is very less; So less that it is surprising. In fact some of the features that were removed were disliked very much by the community. And the number of features that were added are far more in number than that of the removed features.
And not all updates are compulsory. Security updates install automatically. However, Feature updates and Quality updates are optional and don't update automatically.
And Windows does not restart itself. A notification is recieved when the computer needs to restart. They do have this feature called "Active Hours", where your activity time is recorded and Windows installs updates outside "Active Hours". If I remember correctly...this feature is disabled by default in Windows 10.
But the most important point is that...In Windows you can PAUSE THE UPDATES!!, for a limited time that is..the maximum time is 1 month or so. And no one would deny the fact that one should not keep their OS un-updated for more than a month.
Is this a joke?
Or was I asleep for years? Windows provides more "app support" and "hardware support" right now..More than Mac OS and Linux.
And when it comes to functionality....Windows rocks there too. The Windows settings is crowded with options. And there are several third party apps that further improve the functionality. Take Rainmeter for instance which is far better than Conky or KDE Widgets.
However, neither Linux nor Windows is necessarily worse than the other. They both fulfil their purposes and Linux is progressing very fast.
Windows 8.1 is my favourite, whereas Windows Vista is my least favourite.
Now my next few statements are directed to everyone in the linux community. And you may not like it so I am hiding it... and please don't hate me.
Click the arrow to reveal/hide
Why is that so many people in the linux community are so toxic?
I have seen posts on several forums, and social media platforms.
And I don't understand why people defame a software they don't like so much.
Not just Windows...Mac and Google and Snap/Flatpak and GNOME too. If you don't like it then is it necessary to call it useless and bad? It maybe useful to others.
If someone says, "Windows is easier to use". Almost everyone in the linux community jumps up and becomes so defensive.
It is clear that criticism even if it is constructive in nature, is not taken practically. One would write an angry essay about why they are a terrible human being as a reply to the above statement.
This kind of behaviour is downright offensive, discouraging and in no way welcoming to beginners.
"You should use Linux because Windows sucks" does not sound very welcoming and as @gilgamesh rightly says
I don't admire Micro!@#$ and certainly don't like their tactics but I do admire all of there software.
This very clearly applies to you and Gilgamesh completely. Your reactions Both have been not to point out what you dislike about the Other OS or cover the talking points, but to attack others character and even - call them liars.
And to this end...
This thread is Set on Slow Mode. Since another user has opted to try to Flame War and attack personal character instead of debating the talking points.
Further character attacks will result in closure.
I am 100% certain about the thread closure.
Users do not get to start being abusive to each other with Clear Character attacks, instead of debating differences of opinion or differences of fact.
What would the forum be like if users were able to resort to such with greater frequency? How would many users feel comfortable seeking help and troubleshooting here if they see abuse and character attacks?
There are better uses for everyones time, than to try to claim Oppression when users must be reminded to:
Debate topics and hash out the ideas, not attacking the person or throwing Insults and Accusations.
Take time to carefully consider your post.
Avoid flaming.
There are better uses for our time than For members to necessitate defending corrective actions taken agains those that choose to abuse others.
To the points on Topic:
No, they are not. Let's take it one step at a time...
This does not make my statement false, in any way whatsoever.
My statement never said it was Unique to Windows. You are putting words in my mouth.
What I said was : I find Windows to be clunky. This statement is true. I find it to be very clunky in relation to other OS's that I have used.
And in order to adjust things to be more conducive to my workflow, I needed to modify registry settings. This statement is also true.
I never said it was Unique to Windows.
Further, a large number of feature removals is Legitimate Grounds for User Complaint.
Your claim that all my statements are false is clearly false- Unless you can demonstrate that Windows 11 did not, in fact remove features such as making the "Taskbar" much less configurable.
Having last used Windows 7 - I found a large number of settings simply removed that are noteworthy.
I started net searching how to restore these things, and while I came across a few pointers that did enable me to, for example, set a Windows 7 or 10 style Menu, I came across many that covered how many things are Just Removed as Settings in Windows 11. This is true and nothing you just said demonstrates that to be false, in any way.
You did not demonstrate that my statements are false because you did not show that any features were not removed.
Support this this with evidence. In fact, since we have not covered all the removals, how do you assume which features were "disliked by the community?"
Less compared to what? What is your frame of reference? Which features?
If I assume this statement is true... What difference does it make?
If the features I use and prefer have been removed, and the settings to restore them removed... Then I have legitimate grounds to dislike it.
-sigh-
This is an Ad Hominem attack and an assumption.
I can be mistaken about something, but not lying.
However, there are many updates that are performed without user consent and cannot be roilled back.
Before you say, "This is true on Linux, too" - I would agree. This is true for some packages on Linux. However, on Linux there no compulsory upgrades and you only cannot roll a package back if it is significantly less than what is contained within a Distro that you chose to install.
Windows upgrades you to Windows 11 Automatically - Whether you consent to it or not:
Clearly not a Lie. Many people I have spoken to did not want to upgrade to Windows 11. It happened on its own - they woke up to find it on their computer. Zorin OS does not automatically upgrade me to the next release. I have a choice.
And my son bought a Windows 10 disk for a hundred bucks or so and reinstalled 10 in order to get it back some months ago and it Upgraded him again...
He installed 10 again and this time, found the setting to stop it from upgrading without his consent. What a pain that was. Is it illegitimate that was unpleasant?
No, it is not a joke.
Windows having App support is also utterly irrelevant. I, personally, find Windows File management to be Clunky and hard to find files, folders, etc in. This is not a Lie. This is not false.
In Linux, files are arranged logically, in arrangement and in order that follows logical thinking.
In Windows 11, the file manager shows you the Most Recent files you opened in the lower pane and a set of most Common folders in the top pane.
In Linux, My home folder shows all my folders without deciding for me which I should see.
It is a Legitimate Complaint that I have that I dislike Windows Layout as illogical and guiding instead of directly showing all my folders.
Yes, I can hit the treeview on the left and take different paces toward navigating a tree - but the tree does not follow logical linear order as Linux does, to me. Instead, system files seem all over the place.
This is your opinion and that is fine.
Might I ask you- if I disagree, does this mean that I can attack your character as a person, try to rehash some other persons disagreement, call you a Liar or claim your statement is false?
Update- This comment above is outdated as it refers to the post made in a different thread before the posts were moved here.
Another Moderator lent some insight: He stated both sides have merit in debating the topic, however users may not see others perspectives.
This is a very valid point.
My perspective is that I have not used Windows at all since I switched to Zorin OS. Whereas other users have been using both regularly.
For me, using Windows 11 recently was a rather more stark and sudden shock.
While a user that has been using Windows along with Linux would be more accustomed to the changes in Windows.
To me, feature removals that disallow user configuration will always be seen as a loss of user control and worthy of valid response. Developers often wish for users to have less control - as this allows greater control to the developers.
Users often wish for greater control over their machines.
What sticks out in this the most - Is that understanding each other when you have different perspectives and understanding why you have them, is far more conducive than Just Attacking.
My Grandmother used to tell me you can disagree without being disagreeable. I am 76 years old and have learned that we do NOT always see things the same way. Sometimes people are just plain wrong in how they see things but most of the time the way they see things is just a matter of opinion and how they have experienced life.
I have been using Windows since the days of Windows 3.11. For many years I appreciated how much easier it was to use windows compared to just using DOS commands. And many of the programs I used at work required some version of windows to work.
A few years ago I decided I wanted something not connected to Bill Gates and Microsoft. But when I tried Linux there just wasn't enough support for someone that was coming from Windows. I learned some cli commands and still tried to use Linux by trying several different versions. But the programs I wanted just weren't there or I didn't know how to find them.
About 6 or 7 months ago I read about Zorin and decided to try Linux again. I was pleasantly surprised to find that almost anything I want to do now has a Linux program that will do the job.
Overall for me and my experience I have found Linux in the form of Zorin to actually be much easier to work with than Windows. I especially dislike Windows 10. I liked Windows 7 and Windows XP. But Windows 10 just seemed too intrusive. I haven't opened my dual boot laptop into Windows 10 for at least the last 4 months. And then it was only because I was trying to fix an Ipad for a friend and could't get Itunes to work in Linux. I haven't even turned on my desktop with Windows 7 on it for probably 6 months or so. I just don't need Windows anymore.
One of the things that has really impressed me is how easy it is to install things like printers or wifi dongles. I have had to a couple of times find a tutorial on this forum to install a specific driver but most of the time Zorin automatically finds the device and then installs the driver and I don't have to do anything. Much simpler than trying to get Windows to find a driver and install it.
Thanks so much to the Zorin team and the great moderators of this forum.
I using W7 and Zorin for they hard work. Sample temple Os with one a Man and 120 000 lines code. Imaginetion how many time and line code. This is what brothers Zorin trying doing the best. I cannot waiting for new version Pro. They are better with all standard Linux distribution.
Objectively speaking, I'd say Windows has, overall, continued to improve with successive releases. In terms of engineering, presentation, ease of use, security, and general usefulness, Windows 11 is the best yet. It's a very polished OS to use.
But on a personal level, I hate it - not because it's poorly made, because it isn't. It's the user-hostile design decisions like making MSAs mandatory, dark patterns that railroad users into doing things that help Microsoft (widgets always opening in Edge and not respecting your default browser, bundling ads and crapware in default installations, malware-like bait-and-switch tactics used to get users to upgrade, updates that can't be disabled) that really irritate me. Somewhere, under all that corporate policy, is a fantastic OS.
And I don't know if I'm the only one on the planet that's bothered by this, but I despise the way recent versions of Windows talk to me.
Around the time Office 2013 released, the UX teams at Microsoft took it upon themselves to start going crazy with 'informalising' the app language, turning phrases like "The file is in use by another user" into "There's someone else here", "Do you want to save your changes to xx?" into "Want to save your changes to xx?".
Windows 11 is full of phrases like, "Hi. We're glad you're here." "Getting everything ready for you, just a little longer." "[App] just got installed, check it out." Windows' UX designers seem to think that Windows should be talking to its users like it wants to be their friend, but it somehow just comes across as condescending.
Anyway, for favourites...
Nostalgia points me to Windows 95, as it was the first version of Windows that I ever used, and it was my introduction to computers - I like to fire it up in DosBOX every now and then just to relive the childhood memories.
I also have a soft spot for Vista - I got caught up in all the Longhorn hype and I find the development story behind it to be fascinating. The end product, after service packs were issued and hardware vendors caught up with its new driver models, was quite pleasant to use for the time. DWM and WPF were massive steps up in improving the user experience of the OS, catching it up to Mac OS X. The entire thing just looked so revolutionary and futuristic.
I also loved Windows 8... on a tablet. I know there was a horrible duality to it that just didn't make sense for either tablets or desktop computers, but the tablet experience, on a base level, was wonderful. I was sad that so much of the good work that was done in Windows 8.x was thrown away for Windows 10. Perhaps for the best overall, but Windows 10 didn't care about UX like Windows 8 did. There are so many nice details about the movement and arrangement of Windows 8's tablet experience that they just tossed away afterwards.
You are not.
I comment on this often.
I find it very creepy: "Hi. Sit back and relax. We are getting everything ready for you." I imagine this is what you see on the display when abducted by aliens.
Umm... I want "Clippy" back. At least the Puppy or the Paperclip was just annoying, not super creepy.
You describe my recent experience with Windows 11 to a "T". Up until recently, I was not really antagonistic toward Windows.
And you can see this in posts even as recent as a month ago. Recently, however, I started using Windows 11 for the very first time and Windows again after using exclusively Linux for about a year and a half to two years or so. You would think that reverting back to an OS I used for the vast majority of my life would be pretty easy.
However, the short time of using Linux has spoiled me a lot more than I realized. In using Windows 11, I was struck by:
The complete loss of a feeling of user control
The inundation with integrated accounts and demands that I set up information the way Windows wants - or I am disallowed from proceeding. "Hi. Just give in. We are getting everything ready to spy on you. Relax, this won't hurt. Wanna be probed?"
The sudden unwanted "upgrade" and the inability to stop it.
Rebooting itself due to having installed updates of its own accord in the middle of me working without warning.
I have not booted Windows up for a few days... But because Zorin can access its files, I noted earlier today that it created a new partition and Put Things on it. I get why... I know why... but WHY is it doing that?
It's like buying one of those Robot Vacuum cleaners. Programming it. Setting it up.
Then... at three am, you are woken up to hearing it bumping up against the wall in the living room.
ONE: Why is it thinking for itself and Two: why is it failing at it?
Less compared to the number of features that Micro!@#$% removed when they built previous versions of Windows:
Compare the number:
It seems like, not many features were removed in Windows 11. However, the taskbar as you mention received severe hits. But I also found out that Micro!@#$% is working on bring back, most of the features, for example:
Grouping is one of the things I immediately disable. It is inefficient, disallowing fast recognition of open tasks and windows.
That choice, however, was taken from me.
Don't get me wrong... I hacked it back in... But just because I could repair it with some know-how does not mean every one can or should even have to.
I can also post links that show that Microsoft DOES upgrade automatically to Windows 11.
More-over... I witnessed it do this on my machine, first hand. You cannot tell me that it does not when I watched it happen.
Secondly, your links are, for lack of a better term: Misleading.
It comes down to what you qualify as "forced." If you can disable it with some know-how... or technically, you can roll it back (Even though it will just do it again if you are not careful) - then your link claims it is not "forced."
I disagree. Automatically choosing for you is still making that decision for you. https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/windows-11-automatically-downloads-and-installs/e941255c-cb77-48d2-bb7f-120910de0b62
So, let's see what Microsoft Itself has to say. The Microsoft Webpage itself does not say whether it is automatic or not. It does not confirm or deny. It does however, impose a time limit on rolling back - which I did not know about: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/get-windows-11
Yes. After you have installed the Windows 11 upgrade, there is a 10-day period where you can move back to Windows 10 while keeping files and data that you brought along with you. After the 10 days, you will need to back up your data and do a “clean install” to move back to Windows 10.
Interestingly, users on Windows 10 in S mode, will not get automatically updated unless they switch out of S mode. This may be why some users say that they did not get automatically upgraded, in spite of meeting Windows Stringent Requirements for it.
In the meantime, the onus is on you to support your claim that the Windows 11 Upgrade is not automatic. That is your claim without evidence. Every Single Article I look up says it IS automatic. Can you say all of those articles, every single one, is wrong and if you can, can you provide Clear Evidence that demonstrates their error? Because simply saying that they are all wrong is not good enough:
In coming days or months, all eligible Windows 10 devices will get automatic upgrade to Windows 11 operating system.
There is pretty much no alternate reality in existence in which you can say that my statements were in any way inaccurate.
This is irrelevant to me. No part of this shows that my statements are inaccurate.
This falls under two logical fallacies:
Shifting the Goal Posts and
Red Herring.
My statement was in complaint of removed features. It is not relevant if they removed less than they have before. Your statement that I replied to was;
This implies you are comparing Windows 11 to Windows 11 - causing my confusion and question above.
Good for them. But all that does is Confirm what I said... and refute this:
Clearly, not a single one of them has been shown to be, yet.
The author immediately resorts to doubt.
Right at the outset, the author posts something we all feel at one time or another: That the user did something without realizing that they did. Or do not want to admit to.
Here is my own experience.
I never reached the desktop.
I never clicked on anything that asked if it wanted to check for updates. I was trying to reach the desktop... I had already set secure boot to off in BIOS. I was booting up so I could turn off Fast boot and get Zorin Installed. And I think we can all agree that I am not the sort to go blundering about, unsure of what I am doing...
Rather, Win10 Booted - new machine, first ever boot I did. I got the spinning blue circle.
Then,
"Hi"
"checking for updates."
Then it demanded I must sign in to a Microsoft account in order to proceed. I gave in, due to lack of time and patience and care. It was the only option offered to me. I could not do anything else, other than hold the physical power button down.
Then it installed Windows 11.
Just like that.
I did not reach the desktop until it had done all of that. Then I went in, disabled Fast Boot, rebooted and proceeded Zorin OS Installation. I was on a mission. I was not exploring Windows. I was not poking around.
Is my experience different than others because it was a brand new machine? I do not know. We have no official word that I can find From Microsoft on this. There simply is a void where answers could be.
Is the software written that it is automatic only when certain conditions are met? We do not know.
It wasn't just me. My sons computer did it to him. He then bought a Win10 disk in order to reinstall Win10. I had little involvement in that. I could not say that the Authors Speculation that the User is a Buffoon and did it to themselves is accurate or not.
I can say that authors View of Users is typical of how Microsoft views the users, though.
"We are dumb and need to be controlled and need it done for us."
The author presents no evidence, just incredulity.
And that is not a strong argument. Doubting the veracity of a claim does not refute the claim. Shifting the blame elsewhere, without any way of knowing if it belongs elsewhere and without any evidence; is utter nonsense. It's an easy cop out. But totally unsupported.
I've been working as an IT administrator / Manager and before that, I was working in a PC repair shop. From a business point of view, how windows handle updates creates the most headaches. I've got to say, if you ignore all the telemetry, pre-installed garbage, Windows 10 has been far in the best Desktop/User experience for most. It's very good at getting drivers for users, updates work 99% of the time and go unnoticed by users.
As much as I liked 7, major updates did have a habit of getting stuck and even bricking computers. Out of 100 users, I have yet to format and reinstall Windows 10. It's fast and does basic cleanup on itself, have yet to encounter a virus even with my users. It's fast, takes advantage of all the latest tech and is the most supported by hardware. It's also pretty good in a domain environment and seems to apply policies more successfully than 7.
I will be looking into Zorin Grid closely but when you run 3rd party software like Sage and a whole bunch of tools to transfer data between them, Windows makes sense. Just my 2 cents.
This is a good case point of where having different perspectives (how you feel about something) goes to show that a person is neither right nor wrong.
Just different.
From your perspective, working IT or repair; this is desirable. It means less work for you.
From my perspective; what a terrifying statement to make.
I would not want my local used car salesman doing things that go unnoticed.
Or my insurance company.
I would not want 99% of what my bank does to go unnoticed.
Most often, it's fine. When it is not fine, it is usually very not fine.
And Microsoft ain't exactly riding the reputation of Saints.
When I get updates on Zorin OS. I notice. I read what is being updated. And, I read the changelogs to see what has been changed. Sometimes, I see something in the updates that addresses a recently asked question.
And I post about it. There is direct evidence on this forum - from past unedited posts - that demonstrate the veracity of this.
I wonder: am I different than most?
If I am, is it appropriate for me to encourage others to adopt this standard?
Some may not say not. Some may feel that I am judging them.
They would be right: I Am.
Having different perspectives is a great thing. This variety of thought allows for greater possibilities to be explored. It allows us all to question the merit of our assumptions. And our judgments.
But...
There is little that I ignore.
My favorite Windows was Windows 2000NT.
It was Rock solid, stable - it worked well. It had great support and an extensive refined kernel.
XP followed in its tracks and while XP Home left something to be desired, I only used XP Pro.
Windows 7 stepped down from XP. It was a notch below. I liked it alright... It was better than Vista... Or Windows 8. Anything was better than the Patched Windows 8...
A slug crawling on my broken hard drive was better than patched 8.
For me, Windows 10 fell into Least Favorite between the above (Though still better than Vista or 8). Using it was often more like pulling teeth. Yes, it had great HW support. But less USER support. I can handle hardware better than I can handle having my hands tied.
I'm in a similar mindset to you in terms of controlling what I install/update, knowing what's changed etc but the sad fact is most people just don't care. Businesses just want what works/what's familiar etc.
I do think times are changing these days. People are aware that work will closely monitor what they do on their devices so I can see people are at least separating the 2. It makes me smile to see Facebook suffer losses to their stock price as people realise they're the product being sold, data privacy getting better (Apple giving their users the option to stop cross-app data tracking, data protection, GDRP, VPN usage).
I do get a lot of questions on this subject and recommend small things like changing search engines and privacy controls on devices. The fact is though, it all takes time and effort to do. I don't think you're being judgmental, just passionate
I did help one of my users switch his old laptop over to Zorin-lite and he's happy with it. Small victories will keep you sane. I think there's a balance, leaving the door open and helping/informing rather than trying to force your mindset on people.
--EDIT--
I would also say, not to get frustrated when people don't listen or care. I think you've had a major positive impact on this forum/Zorin community and enabled a lot of people the confidence to say goodbye to windows. Keep fighting the good fight!
Companies have vigorously studied how much people will tolerate before they leave a product or company. The answer is - Quite a lot.
This makes sense when you think about it. the vast majority of time humans have been around, times have been lean and hard. Survivors don't quit.
In these modern times, you can see the effect this has on our psyche. You can easily tell that people are, in general, not quitters - when watching other people with their relationships.
There was a time in Humanities History, when tool making was an art and had to be done just so. There was no laziness about it.
As companies push the limits, the limit of what people will tolerate is being reached - and the times begin to change as social influence encourages others to tolerate less.
Perhaps people care; but not enough. Perhaps due to too many pressing priorities in modern life, people cannot afford to care about everything. This is my passionate flaw.
When I saw the scene in Final Fantasy Advent Children when Cloud said; "There is nothing that isn't important to me" the little me inside exploded with complete recognition.
That's me to a T- a superman complex in an average person.
I appreciate your perceptive words. I am judgmental - I just do not believe that is necessarily wrong. In society we are told to not judge. I do not judge the things we cannot control. I do not judge people because of who they find attractive or what flavor of ice cream they like. I do not judge people for who they are. But I judge for what they choose to be. How much... really... do we have that we can choose? Not much. Not really. So, when you have that power - use it.
Protect it.
