I watched this video and they were calling out ZorinOS lack of structural organization.
I never really thought about it until this video.
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YouTux's points are well reasoned, logical and grounded.
Sadly, this is a truth both we and the ZorinGroup have confronted time and time again here on this forum - I cannot say what they have experienced solely on the ZorinGroup communication side.
This is voiced not by detractors or biased persona's seeking retribution against Zorin OS - but by diehard fans and regular users.
The ZorinGroups silence echoes in the Hall of Distributions.
If someone pulled me aside and said, "Using only one word, the first word that comes to your mind without thought, describe the ZorinGroup."
That word would be "secretive."
Often, the concern is raised as to whether Zorin OS will be a long term project.
Often, it is asked, whether they will ever expand the team, in order to ensure longevity and growth.
We answer as best we can - but the ZorinGroup is silent.
And when they released a message, it was not an introduction to new team members.
It was to sunset an edition of Zorin OS, in order to reduce workload.
To users already asking about the stability and longevity of the project, this was a staggering announcement.
Those of use that vouched for the ZorinGroup, self included, felt betrayed.
The face of ZorinGroup is Artyom. He does the blogs. The interviews. He responds on the forum, albeit rarely.
He is the name seen on repository submissions.
To the point that... Most of us doubt that Kyrill Zorin is actively a part of the ZorinGroup at all. We dare not ask... partly because any answer has no evidence to bolster it.
It is often asked when releases can be reasonably expected. It is often asked when announced projects may come to fruition.
From Upgrader, releases to Grid, we wait in the dark, those of us on the forum filling the void with opinions and guesses... Or excuses.
Actions Speak Louder Than Words.
Through the years, Zorin OS has shown a rise in usage, expansion and has developed a number of applications independently. Such as the Zorin Menu, which was forked to create Arc Menu.
And the ZorinGroup donated funding to many other projects.
The ZorinGroup has read, quietly, and responded with system additions or changes based on user requests and suggestions.
The ZorinGroup actively spoke openly with the community in regards to changing the default web browser on Zorin OS.
The stability of Zorin OS has increased along with the over a decade and a half of it being in service.
These Matter.
Yet, for over 16 years, they have not adopted a model of transparency, organizational openness, solidifying communication or resolution over long term goals like Upgrader or Grid.
This leads to user doubts. Lack of trust.
It is not mean to point these things out. It is helpful, to them and to the users of Zorin OS.
It is beneficial - to make suggestions that support long term reliance on Zorin OS. To provide a solid foundation for the belief that Zorin OS will retain or grow its position and not become abandoned. Something more solid than, "because Aravisian on the Zorin Forum said so."
I also had said that they were not abandoning Zorin OS Lite in response to rumors - and then they did.
This, also, matters.
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I watched that a couple of days ago and I too thought he was well reasoned in all of what he said. I have only been using Zorin since November and like it. I have watched a couple of interviews with Artyom and liked what I heard.
Two people, or one maybe, cannot do everything and meet all needs. The doers can't spend half their time talking or things wouldn't get done. But in human endeavors communication is essential. Understanding is a basic human need and things we involve ourselves in need to make sense to us and accord with our values.
I have the impression that Zorin is managed ethically and values are important, but I do not know this. I would like the reassurance of knowing.
The reality, based on the past behaviour, is things will mostly continue going on as they have done. And I will stay here until something happens to make me re-evaluate whether this is the place for me. I am certainly not drawn to the distro's fitting YouTux's, and my, criteria.
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Well, personally this makes no difference whatsoever to me. The important thing is that Zorin has introduced me to the first working Linux distro I've tried over many years. If it stops, I'll have enough experience to move to a different distro. Job done...
They still haven't released Zorin OS 18 Lite. The upgrader for Zorin OS 18 is still in "beta" (and it's been a few months since Zorin OS 18 was released). I share your impressions that Kyrill is not really involved. I hate to say this, but I doubt Zorin OS 18 Lite will see the light of day. Something's going on behind the scenes. What that is, I don't know, but it's obviously affecting what we're seeing out here.
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The Beginning of the Video shows me that it seems to be that some People until now not have done understand right that You don't have to pay Money for Zorin. You can pay the Pro Version. You can, but You don't have to.
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I can speak historically that basically, Artyom is the one most heavily involved in the development side, and Kyril does contribute, when the forum was on the old php.BB version, Kyril designed all of that, it was his responsibility. One of the reasons Zorin moved away from php.BB was to reduce the workload on Kyril to free him to contribute more to the project as Discourse is (allegedly) more secure when it comes to potential forum spammers.
When I was a moderator on the old forum I would be up late into the early hours, contributing to solutions, but the most onerous task was having to check multiple attempts by spammers to join the forum which meant with every application I would need to go to stopforumspam.com check usernames, and if that came up blank, search against known IP addresses. I think one night I had checked over 200 attempts, and this was when I was the only moderator around at the time.
The other main moderator was Wolfman who had been missing due to medical issues.
I am pretty sure in the past there were more developers involved, and of course, everything got turned upside down in 2020.
Credit to LM from adding Debian Edition to their offering. Sure, LM has quite a few more devs involved, but they have taken steps to ensure LM will continue to maintain a presence.
The only thing I can see happening to GNU/Linux is its destruction by the adoption of Wayland, a joint effort created by Microsoft, Intel and Collabora, who created WSL using Weston
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Well, the guy is open about this love and admiration towards:
BigLinux is free and positions itself as a strong, user-friendly Linux distribution
In this video he is calling the Zorin Group a shadow company As far as I understand, he has a huge need for openness and that is his biggest critic regarding Zorin.
In the past, I did an analysis on the transparency of Linux distributions, examining the public availability of budgets, governance, community, and code development. You know where Zoran was in last place? Last. Where are the budgets? Where are real contacts? Where are the names of the developers? Where are the organizational charts? Where is information about project governance? Where is anything beyond that website which doesn't even say open source?
I cannot accept that in an ecosystem founded on transparency, on sharing, on open code and open decisions. There's a company that operates in the shadows. A company that doesn't say who its developers are. That doesn't publish its budgets. That doesn't explain how decisions are made.
That doesn't even have a public contact email address. This isn't open source. This is the opposite of open source. This is taking open code and closing it inside a commercial black box where you can't see what's happening, who decides where the money goes. That said, can you understand that $50 for the pro version of Zoran OS is equivalent to spending $50 for a litter of tap water bottled with a beautiful label from a source that isn't public at all, but belongs to a community that distributes water freely. That's exactly what it is.
You're paying for something that's already yours, already available, already free. Just because someone packaged it better and convinced you that the packaging is worth $50, the water is the same, the software is the same, only they put a shiny label on it and sold it to you as if it were something exclusive, premium, special.
And regarding Zoran OS lovers, those who will come to comment saying they pay the $50 consciously, knowing they just want to support the distribution, well, you're wrong. You should say, "I pay $50 knowing I want to support the Zoran OS company, not the distribution, not the community, not the developers of the software you're using.
The company, a private company based in Ireland that doesn't publish budgets, that doesn't have transparent governance, that doesn't say where your money goes." And yes, you're free to do so. Absolutely. But I'm equally free to make this video and say what I think. That you're wasting your money. That you're supporting a business model that doesn't respect the principles of open-source and that if you really want to support the Linux ecosystem, there are a thousand better ways to do it.
starting at 12:27 to 15:29
[sigh]
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Honestly a while back when they had their posting for a job, it had made it sound like it was going to be for someone to address these deficiencies that they have now, and assist with all the PR / public questions and help ease that side of things so they could focus solely (more or less) on the development side of things.
I'm not sure what ever came of that, and I don't have the listing for that posting when it came up, but it was definitely in that same vein. It definitely is something they need to be actively addressing, and I was hoping it would've lead to some improvements.
NOTE: I am quoting Cars10, who is quoting the YouTuber "YouTux".
I am not quoting Cars10's own words:
Is Zorin OS Pro a Scam?
No.
Pro delivers exactly what it advertises that it does.
If an argument is well worded, it can sound convincing.
We pay for things that are 'free' all the time. We pay for water. We pay for air.
We pay for methane.
What we pay for is Processing and Service.
I mentioned this above: The ZorinGroup donated funding earned from Zorin OS Pro to multiple independent developers.
We can speculate that this was done for P.R.
If so, so what? It was done - and this benefits us all.
In supporting ZorinGroup by choosing Pro, the Pro users also supported multiple GnuLinux efforts.
The problem with perspective is that it is valid from that position. This is why it is important to shift position and then take another look.
I will openly and honestly give my perspectives on Zorin OS and the ZorinGroup and they are not always positive or flattering.
I will openly and honestly give my perspectives on both where it is positive and recognition should be given, too.
What I observe, however, is that many see only the positive and endorse only that.
Many see only the negative and endorse only that.
I think @rocl worded this perfectly:
Hit the nail on the head.
I quote myself:
Is it because they have secrets to hide?
Or because disclosure is a drain on their time? A person may not think of something that needed to be disclosed - or they may be protecting rather than hiding.
When we see things like the above, which ends in a silent mystery - it will inspire speculation, assumption or wonder.
None of the above - are answers that build Trust.
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And unfortunately when people are left to speculate, many assume the negative, in part because we project our own proclivities on others.
I wonder if the multiple independent developers included Blender, GIMP, Inkspace, Kdenlive, and others insofar as they have been part of the tooling and construction of the Zorin interface, chrome, etc That would be a good thing. And although technically there is no obligation to do so, it would do no harm for Zorin to credit them. It would be an ethical positive.
Also, when it comes to the "Zorin OS Pro" edition, (an unfortunate label in retrospect), bundling the many extra programs isn't an attempt to co-opt free software and try to make money off of them. It is the convenience of not having to find them, to choose the type (apt, flatpack) and repository for download, and to make sure they are configured properly for Zorin. As for other extra features, the four desktop extensions are nice. More valuable I think is extra individual support offered. But all extra features are fundamentally "thank you" gifts for the $50, solicited as a way of supporting the entire Zorin project. (Hmmm.. the "Thank You" edition?)
Correcting misperceptions is difficult, because there are automatic associations with the word "Pro" born of long experience in the way that word has been used with other programs, etc. And what I really cringe at, is that many stay away because they don't want to, or can't pay $50 for the "complete" pro version and just getting Zorin Core (the word "core" having associations with "stripped down") wouldn't be satisfying.
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I just finished watching the video, and it really put into words the 'itch' I’ve been trying to scratch regarding Zorin OS. Like many of you, I’ve always appreciated the professional polish and the 'it just works' philosophy. I’m not a programmer; I use Zorin because I want to get to work without hyperfixating on my tools.
The video’s point about transparency and governance is what finally clicked for me. I’ve been a member since the Zorin 15 era, and while I’ve always used the Core version, I worry about the experience of the 'average' user who is new to Linux. When a newcomer sees that professional website and the 'Pro' option, their immediate assumption is often that 'Pro' equals 'Direct Support' or 'Superior Performance.' In reality, the support remains largely community-driven, and the project is maintained by a very small team.
If Zorin is operating as a commercial LLC (as the video pointed out), there is a higher expectation for clear communication—not just for those who pay, but for the community that keeps the OS relevant. My frustrations aren't just about the software; they're about the lack of a public roadmap:
- Zorin Grid: I’ve been keeping an eye on this for years. It’s been 'under development' for multiple major releases now, yet there’s no public milestone. For a commercial entity, 'soon' eventually loses its meaning.
- The 'Lite' Version: Communication here feels fragmented. Those of us keeping older hardware alive need to know if Lite is still a priority or if we should be looking elsewhere.
- The Vanishing Archive: It’s a small but telling detail—the archive links used to be easy to find; now they feel hidden. Simple accessibility shouldn't require a scavenger hunt.
I want this OS to thrive, but as the video suggests, we need more than just a polished UI. We need to know 'what’s what.' I’d love to see the team address these growing pains:
- Transparency: Can we get a clearer picture of the team and the roadmap? If this is a commercial product, users need to know who is responsible for the platform they trust their data to.
- Grid Status: Can we get a realistic update on Zorin Grid?
- The 'Pro' Expectation: How is the team addressing the gap between the 'Pro' branding and the reality of community-based support?
- The Future of Lite: Is there a formal commitment to Lite for the long term?
I’m curious if other users—especially those who came here after watching the video—are starting to feel the same way? Is the 'professional' look of the website enough to bridge the gap while we wait for these long-overdue updates?"
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I'm getting a kick out of some of the comments here. People are starting to finally wake up. Vindication is a great feeling to have.
I have felt this way for a long time. And vocally, not just publicly, but Artyom Zorin knows my expression on these, directly.
Just to be clear: I will not say anything behind someones back that I have not fully said to their face.
At that time, it was rather explosive and part of the fallout was that we lost one of our Good Moderators (He left to adhere to his principles, he was not fired.)
And I point out above that these comments keep coming back around. The questions keep coming back around.
They are not new. This video worded it more eloquently than I could.
It also, dips into assumption and negativity needlessly - Which I addressed above when I commented on the portions Cars10 quoted.
Despite some errant assumptions, much of it is logical and YouTux is quite right to say people need to look for more than "polish." I have been saying the same for years.
Earlier, I said:
This is you. You see only the negative and you endorse that.
It does not make you wrong. Just, this is your bias.
What you feel is that given your poor experience; you want support from others in a situation you feel powerless in. This... Most all of us can relate to. Maybe not about Zorin OS - but about so many things in life where we have to empower someone over us and feel helpless (Insurance companies....)
You want to see success. You rooted for Zorin for a long time, until you reached a point where your support collapsed - leaving only an empty shell of negativity.
I understand this feeling far, far better than I wish I did.
Note the wording: Collapsed. You did not withdraw it. You did not give up.
It collapsed.
This distinction is critical - To ZorinGroup.
While some react to your comments - looking at the bigger picture; You are Representative of a crowd.
And it is too easy... To say:
"You see only the negative and you endorse that." And become dismissive.
I won't. I Won't Dismiss it. I will not collapse.
Because the Patterns Are Clear.
And equally, we find balance in encouraging posts.
My belief... is that the ZorinGroup are good people.
I have no strong eevidence to support this. Only... bits and pieces of observations.
Moments of compassion.
Of genuine understanding.
Of generosity... And acts of kindness.
They do not need to see this thread and see mean words. Or anger.
Or biased uninformed judgment.
This:
...Is the voice of frustration. It might look like hate, but it is not.
It is the human reaction to feeling betrayed.
Though I do admit... You could use the cunning application of a verbal filter.
What ZorinGroup can take away from this thread is recognizing a pattern:
When so many entities
Ignored
User
Feedback...
Like Mozilla... they flounder. Not right away.
But they wear the mark and it will catch up.
ZorinGroup can filter out the human negativity to see the end goals. The brightly lit beacon that also shines in this thread.
To us, it is a product but to them, it is their livelihood.
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Yeah, this is my belief, too. I am critical of how this will look in the long term. I know it feels like we're repeating the same thing in different posts and what's not.
I love ZorinOS. But with that being said, I do have valid concerns and I can only go so long on "good vibes". I was on and off Linux for the past few years, and I keep swapping between ZorinOS and PopOS. I keep using ZorinOS because it's one of those "well, I like the way it looks".
I'm not in this mind state. You HAVE brought up this many times before, as I seen in the past. A lot of people. And maybe I just thought what I thought at the time. But then I evolved and now I'm like "okay, if I'm going to spend time on this OS, and recommend it, I need to know exactly is the long-term vision"
I saw Zorin Grid and was going to write a proposal to my local government about this. But then I'm like "is this thing coming out or what?" And then this video popped up and I'm like "well... come to think of it, I got questions".
I feared that if this been some people's sentiment for years... then our only hope is that the leaders of this look into it and start making some changes to their planning. Otherwise, we're just going to talk in circles and then it becomes this refrain...
For their sake, I hope they take the MANY hints in this forum.
Update: To balance this out a bit... I did trace at least one donation to WinBoat that ZorinOS donated to. It turned out that they are one of the top donations on Ko-Fi. So, while it does put a little faith to show that they do show and prove, it's a bare-minimum and that kind of good faith can only last for so long.
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Transparency....is difficult. Which is why few of us want to engage in it. We'd all rather keep things to ourselves, or at least to a small circle of people.
I serve on a board for a (completely non-technical) organization.
Early on, I was paired up with a brilliant individual on an important project. She shared her guiding philosophy - radical transparency.
Something else: make friends with discomfort. That applies to everything. Rather than avoid it, lean into it - from physical exercise to admitting when you're wrong to risking criticism in the defense of another.
No one enjoys the world observing you up close - especially in this hyper-connected age. But enduring the discomfort of radical transparency (insofar as possible - and not without regard for well-being of others) leads to the best outcomes, especially when one persists in it.
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Yes, you are right - I will add the point that radical transparency in this involves business profile, not personal lives.
This was me for quite a while before I moved onto MX Linux.
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I sincerely hope so, too. That is my honest belief and hope. But ... yeah.