I switched to Windows temporarily...And I have made some observations

That is Considered to be the most useless terms bill gates said and about bloatware let's Start a Head Count :wink:

  1. Microsoft Windows Defender (Biggest Bloatware Ever made)
  2. Office Service (Advertisement)(Bloatware)
  3. Extra App that need to be removed using Power shell every-time you Reinstall.
  4. Updates (Don't Stop only Pause)(But Still work in background :joy:)
  5. The Promises made in Windows 10 and 11 to run in even in 1 GB ram are all false.

Running Debloater available on GitHub does not Actually works Every time and for Everyone, I have seen the best PC's running Windows crash after Running that :man_shrugging:

A Business Trust Should be glass Clear and rock Solid, For Windows It's Totally Opposite.


I am out of time to really focus on this in entirety, so I will focus on this one thing real quickly:
The link you posted demonstrates a lack of support in Electron based discord for Wayland and Pipewire. They posit the the older version of Electron used by Discord may mean it does not have security updates.
This is speculative, though worth looking into... but does not support the idea that Discord is buggy, performs poorly, is unstable, etc. on Linux. It does not support the idea that a person must be drunk to think otherwise.

I have been using discord for a long while with no bugginess, no crashes, no sluggishness - No instabilities whatsoever. While this anecdote is not evidence, it still refutes the wording that you used: Suggesting that Discord is so unstable on Linux that a person must be drunk to not notice. This clearly is not the case and your link does not suggest anything of the kind.

Perhaps you personally feel that Discord on Windows works better (Is it using the same Electron base that is older?), but exaggerating it to appear as though it is because it is a buggy mess on Linux is needless to feel understood.

I could as easily show letters or posts or articles where users complain of a myriad of apps on Windows that they feel lacks proper support for security updates, etc.

Interesting...Maybe its Fedora specific?
Basically screen sharing does not work. Audio input and output devices are missing and not listed in discord. also chat bubbles never appeared both on gnome and kde plasma for me. Slow and sluggishness must be because of electron though, that too an older electron. Also auto updates frequently gave errors.

These two resonate quite strongly. Acknowledging a problem exists and has long term impact on everyone, yet do nothing about it. Point in favor to Aravisian.

As for design and being straightforward, well that's always up to each and every one, but I think this is worth a read: Former Microsoft employee slams Windows 11's Start Menu design

I know a couple of guys who worked at Microsoft, way back when Windows 8 was released, refused to use it because they found it terrible experience. Purely anecdotal but still shows that these sort of things are very subjective.


Really. Privacy is not an issue for me in this case. I use google. I use chrome. I use android and gmail. I use windows and I use a Chinese office suite. I have read countless debates on "I don't care about privacy because I have nothing to hide." And although the counter-arguments to this statement are true they don't apply to me personally.

I understand everyone's needs and concerns are different.

What I wanted to say is that I agree with Aravisian in that making changes is hard even when there are objective benefits to make them. Although I certainly don't recommend go full "privacy freak", as you put it, from the get go. Just like I wouldn't recommend stop using cars and running marathons overnight.

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Privacy is a whole 'nother complex topic.
It is not about having something to hide or not.

When user data is collected, it can be compromised.

When user data is collected and sold, it can be misused.

But most importantly, by far... What affects everyone is how algorithms like those used by Facebook and Google tighten users into a Personal Bubble of their own interests.
By exploiting their personal information, these platforms try to appeal to peoples interests- thereby cutting them off from opposing viewpoints.
The result of this is that in an internet age, we are getting less informed due to a lack of balance in the information we are exposed to.
The Division seen in the United States in recent Democracy demonstrates those terrifying repercussions.
As people were isolated from worldview and kept informed only by their own generated interests, they no longer were able to see the forest from the trees. And this even culminated in US Citizens attacking, with a noose, our Capitol.
I realize that this example uses a political situation - Note that I have supported a side in it.
Rather - just how powerful personal data collection and use can affect people who have nothing to hide, or do not care about some simple marketing.

The rest of the major problems with Privacy, I can detail in another thread.

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I have used windoze all the way back to 3.1. And I have spent many hours looking for drivers that worked on windoze. In MY opinion the last decent version of windows was 7. It just had a layout that made more sense and many things just worked. But when MS decided I needed to update to 11 I decided it was time to look for an alternative. After some research I found out about Zorin and this forum

Last night was a clear example of why Linux is a better OS for me. I have a HP laser jet printer. Zorin and Linux mint both found that printer and installed the correct drivers on the first try. I have that printer as a network printer.

Last night after my granddaughter got a school paper written she tried to print it. Her laptop is running Windows 10. It kept saying the printer was off-line. It wasn't. About half the time she tries to print a paper using her W10 laptop we have to uninstall the printer and reinstall it to get it to work.

My experience with printers and other devices has been that Linux does a much better job of supporting them than W10. There are some exceptions because of the device manufacturers not supporting Linux but most of them do now.

I personally will never go back to windoze.

As an aside note I recently discovered that my old MS force feedback steering wheel and pedals for race car games still work on Linux. But MS hasn't supported them since the days of XP. Go figure. They don't even support their own products.


For what is worth, I've always had problems with printers. I really don't like them as testimonies of either OS being better than others.

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It is impossible to determine the superiority of Windows and Linux in the Zorin OS forum, which is only one of the Linux-based operating systems. :person_shrugging:

My fan barely runs on my laptop.... It also barely ran on my box when I had one.

The laptop I'm using now is a Dell like my previous one using AMD. Nothing real fancy AMD Ryzen 7 5700U with Radeon Graphics Γ— 8, with a 2tb ssd.

My old Dell laptop was using Intel.

Everything on the laptop works just fine, not a problem with any of the pre-installed hardware at all and battery life is the same or better as on the Windows side.

Part of the problem with the hardware issues is people buy things that are not compatible or fully compatible with Linux for whatever reason, usually the manufacturers. I don't use Nvidia because I know the issues, and I never have a graphics issue. Just like I wouldn't try to use hardware made exclusively for Mac on Windows, I don't try and use hardware made exclusively for Windows on Linux. Doing so, you're creating your issues and problems.

But to imply that no issues are to be found on Windows is disingenuous at best. I can't tell you the countless hours I spent fixing my own Windows systems and others because of one issue or another. Or the time searching for the driver because it was missing or Windows wasn't telling you exactly what driver was needed. Or the printer that wouldn't work, or the USB dongle for Wifi, or a controller, etc, etc, etc.

I have Mega, and I don't have any issues with it on Linux. And I also don't see what is "missing" between my Linux or Windows versions. I don't use VPN software apps because they're junk. I have PureVPN and ProtonVPN and no matter what OS you run them on they're junk. Just put your info in natively install the file and done.

People waste their time distro hopping because some think the grass is greener on the other side and some think it's cool. I try out different ones because I want to see the offering, I do it on a virtual and then I destroy it.

I'm not getting into all you wrote, @Aravisian is doing a much better job than I in addressing them.

But one thing I see on this forum and others is people create their own issues and problems. People go in and start installing this and that, touching this and that without understanding what it is they're doing. Then go to the forums and complain my system is acting up.. I can't login any more, I can't boot, my printer disappeared, etc, etc, etc. If you don't know what you're doing, then don't do it. And if you don't know how to fix what it is you're about to do then you really shouldn't be doing it. This holds true across the OS spectrum.

Then of course you have the ones that just have the newest thing out, they don't understand what a beta is and/or unstable. They just have to have the new shiny thing, even though they have no clue what the new shiny thing does. I see these same people across OS's and even devices where they install the latest and greatest then whine it doesn't work and have zero clue as to how to get it off their system. I refuse to help these people even one iota. How many postings do you see here, when are we getting Ubuntu 22, Libreoffice just released something, Wayland just released something.... Yes, Wayland... don't even get me started on that...

I have zero issues hardware wise or software wise on my install on Zorin or any of the other distro's I've used on this machine. I have a Brother printer as well that is issue free. I also don't sit here tinkering with my system on an hourly basis installing things and uninstalling things.... Maybe the problem isn't so much Linux as it is the user... The same as it would be on Windows and Mac. Just a thought.

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Windows somehow treats the shutdown as a system update. Too many times when the computer shuts down and sees the computer being updated, it really sucks (this also explains why the computer is so slow at that time, because the system is being forced to update)


I did acknowledge the fact that this is not the fault of linux. Moreover, let it be known that I don't use Nvidia. I am using an intel core i5 3210 and amd radeon hd 7000series graphics with 8gb ram 512gb hdd.

Saying that buying hardware that does not support linux is the users fault is downright outrageous. The same can be said differently. Not supporting hardware is linux's fault.

Do you get the option to stream or open the transfer manager on linux? I did not get that when I used it on linux.

I did not do that....I distro hopped because I had to. I wrote a very comprehensive post on this. you can check it out.

I did not say that anywhere. And for the hundredth time, I wrote this post specifically to highlight the good things about windows and not to disparage linux. If you notice good things being said about Windows OS it does not mean somebody is trying to denigrate the linux desktop.

This is not relevant to the topic. Please stick to the topic. Not everyone has the time to read long paragraphs.

I am sorry what do you mean to say by this? I had to flag your post for this. You don't know who I am or what I use my computer for and how I use it..You can show your attitude elsewhere.

This is to clarify:

I did not say anything to attack linux or its users in this thread. I only pointed out places where I faced problems in linux. It is about hardware (fault of hardware manufacturers and not linux devs) and app support (fault of app devs and not linux devs). This is a feedback treat it like that and not like a debate. HELPFUL DISCUSSIONS ARE WELCOME. DEBATING AND ASKING USERS TO PROVE THEIR POINTS OR CALLING THEM AN INEFFICIENT USER IS NOT.

It was quite clear what was meant by it...

Yes, you had to flag the post.... That says all that needs to be said right there....

So because you didn't understand it or like it and it you flag it.. even though it doesn't go against the rules. Maybe you should have read the post that was made yesterday or the other day about flagging things on here by @Aravisian .

I think we're done here. I have neither the time nor patience for people that behave like this

I cannot agree that this is outrageous. While it would certainly be nice if hardware manufacturers were supportive of other Operating Systems, the onus is on any buyer to do proper research prior to buying - anything. Houses, cars, computers...
It is not outrageous to suggest the same if a buyer chooses a vehicle, then complains bitterly that many gas stations they stop at do not offer Bio-fuel or diesel. You might agree that their complaint is valid, but it just as valid that they chose to buy a vehicle that doesn't use the standard gasoline.

This may be true, but this does not mean that it applies to everyone as though they all had wasted hours distro hopping. I also distro hopped in order to see what other distros offer and configurations they set up - I thoroughly enjoyed the experience.

This is definitely true.
And had you not denigrated the Linux desktop in repeated statements, no one would have reacted to the disparity.
I think that because what you intend and what you are thinking about are what highlights in your mind, you may not notice some of the things you say that would highlight in others mind far more noticeably.
Please re-read your posts and focus more on the negative statements you made about Linux in order to promote what you had as good experiences on windows.
You used comparison between the two in order to highlight what you enjoyed about Windows - and each one was about how things don't work on Linux, are buggy, etc.

It is relevant.
The idea of comparing user experiences must include what @swarfendor437 calls PICNIC: Problem in chair not in computer.
Many of us reference this in posts, often humorously. It is very important for all users to recognize personal responsibility and allow room for growth and learning.

@Elegant_Emperor this can as easily apply to you.
Consider how you had worded your arguments against Linux specifically as
"How many people wasted hours trying different distros"
"How many people wasted hours searching alternatives"
You do not know how other people use their computers and whether or not they had the same motives in searching for other applications (I often did so because I was reveling in the option of having options) - to assume that for them it was a terrible experience is no more valid than for you to say @DeanG assumes what happened to a persons computer.

Many users are honest and responsible and they come to this forum and directly say: "I do not know what I am doing. Can you help me with figuring this out." I mean.... I cannot list the millions of things that I do not know. Or wouldn't even begin to know how to do. It's normal and it is not humbling at all to admit to the fact we do not all have all-encompassing knowledge.

From your perception, you may view it as your intention. However, what you physically posted was that your experience on Windows was superior due to buggy, sluggish, unstable apps on Linux as a whole, including material that you struck out and retracted.

I agree that directly calling a user inefficient is not helpful. Had that been the case, that would need to be addressed.
DeanG gave a general example that is applicable - one of the possibility of PICNIC. This is equally valid to your assumption that in a general sense, users experience the lacking features, sluggishness or bugginess that you suggested and must distro hop trying to find a working distro.
However, Debating and asking users to support claims is 100% helpful.
Per the example I also gave: "Fact: Pink dragons get more lollypops..." Any person can post a bit of information without support and mislead another person.
In order to hash out clarity, determine the most accuracy and keep a balanced view, formally debating and asking each claimant to support their claims is essential.
It certainly should not be one-sided, nor be allowable that any person can just make any claim without support.

I was typing a lot and quickly and made a very embarrassing error. The word "billion" was in my brain and I typed it instead of "million". I quite literally busted up laughing at the absurdity of it as you (rightfully) responded "There aren't that many people on the planet."
If you hadn't called me out on that, it may have remained as an incorrect statement unless I noticed it re-reading it.
And that's a good thing and it allowed me the opportunity to go back in and correct it.

Opposing views are a part of life and hashing out what makes those differences so marked is also beneficial. Just because two people may begin to argue over the topic does not mean that the topic is no good.

But we all must make allowances for how we perceive statements. Notably, our own.
If a person logs into Windows and has a pleasant surprise on their experience (Which many users comment on without incident), it may be more conducive to that discussion to not relate this experience by repeatedly asserting that Linux falls short in place after place after place. I think it likely you went on a tangent that you had not intended by comparing Linux and Windows, which is why that comparison does not highlight for you as it does for others.
Many apps work very well on Linux even though they are made for Windows, because the developers developed them on Linux, then adapted them to work on Windows.
Some apps work better on Windows. Some work better on Linux. But as a Linux Support forum, it is important to support claims, show the actual differences; Rather than claim Linux generally just falls short and leave it at that - disenchanting users who are eager to make the switch without cause.

This threads strongest highlight is it demonstrates how we all perceive what is said by others including what is said by ourselves. It is interesting how one statement can draw very different focus from different people.


This is a moot argument, Linux windows Mac OS Chrome OS all have their places and their uses. I solely use Linux at home it is my preferred OS but I live in a Windows environment at work I am comfortable and adapt at both. They are both excellent choices they both get the job done and it comes down to what your preferences or use case is. If you're a casual gamee and just want a free open operating system Linux is a great choice. If you're competitive gamer it's going to be playing triple A titles requiring anti cheat software you're going to have to go windows. If you're going to deploy 4000 endpoints across the globe I would not suggest trying to do that with Linux your best bet is Microsoft Windows ecosystem. I mean I could go on and on the best operating system is the best one for your use case scenario and preferences.

I liked when people taken a choice and writing something. I respect that. Any operating system have both sides good and bad. That why people using for them preferences.
Linux is like a military training ground.
Anything can happen.
One what i seeing linux tools and software free when your system is broken then linux help that. Many software on linux not working on windows and the same with apple.
I wish also some topic not so fast closed what i can sure it will be happening here soon. This is something will be like closed a mouth people who have experience with using linux and windows. I hope this subject not will be closed.

You do see the inconsistency in that screen shot. Explorer and vlc both have a flat, material style to them. Device manager or even task manager both still have the recessed window look of windows 2000/xp. Hitting the start button will also show refined graphics, but search control panel and again you have the win2000/xp/7 appearance. This is inconsistent.

I don't dislike windows. I managed windows networks, repaired some of their best and worst versions. I have enough experience to tell you that doing something in windows to correct errors, set permissions or customize simple things requires hours of searching, trial and error, in settings and the registry.

Linux has been an experience, learning how things work and that it's not difficult to modify anything. There are configuration files to change, in a readable format rather than dword vs string or boolean that requires 16 digit codes representing settings or omitted registry entries just so you can't change it.

What did Microsoft in for me is their blatant disregard for peoples privacy, security (thanks for that Google) as well as their move to Micro services. You do realize they are beginning to integrate the Linux kernel into windows right? Where do you think that is going? Windows will become a Linux distro with a registry... Microsoft will no longer have to support their own os. Several thousand developers that dedicate time and effort to Linux will do it for them. They will only have to work out any bugs from integrating the latest kernel. That to will only last for so long.

It's funny. Microsoft stared by stealing an os, now they're doing it again, so everyone can see it, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that thousands of devoted developers are going to be used by a corporation, to maintain their os, and never have to or try to pay them.

I don't hate Windows.... but Microsoft is going to far.


At our local LUG, (Linux User Group) it was stated that M$ had stolen elements of GNU/Linux as far back as Windows 7 and has been spyware before that. KB updates are a prime example of where you are advised to install but you need to click on a link to find out what is being addressed and the average user would have no idea what the updates effectively did to your machine. I remember getting my first P120 machine with 16 Mb RAM with Windows 95 and a postcard to send to M$ so you would be kept up to date. Never heard anything from them. On another GNU/Linux forum someone posted that at least with GNU/Linux you knew what was happening "under the hood". Before lockdown I was using Windows 10 and Office 2019. I worked from home until I retired in September last year, first using Feren OS before migrating to Devuan 3 "beowulf". In Feren OS I could use the free Braiile Blaster program, when I migrated to Devuan it would not run partly because they introduced a library that was only available in Ubuntu or its forks. So I had to use the Windows version on a VM of Windows 8.1 Pro 32-bit and the only other item I needed Windows for was Outlook to access a unique mailbox that could be accessed by more than one member of the team. I worked out on my own how to setup my Outlook365 work email in Evolution, at least I got a bleep when new mail arrived, which previously had led me to invest in axsecond monitor because Outlook 365 has no new mail notification sound, as my work needed an original document that needed to be modified on one side of the screen and the new one on the left meant I had missed an email sent by a colleague two hours earlier!
Then a month before retirement I had worked out myself with a bit of research how I could log in to the secure servers at work using Remmina Remote. Unlike using Edge in my Windows VM that required me to enter my username and password 3 times, with Remmina it was only needed once. I rest my case!