Init Systems [SystemD... evil] will ZorinOS consider an alternative?

This is just one piece of the puzzle. But an important one...

The ZorinGroup will not consider other options, no.
In fact, they seem rather strongly supportive of this direction of control within GnuLinux and have even dropped all support for other desktops; focusing exclusively on dominance, sunsetting the XFCE Zorin OS Lite releases.

It used to be that Zorin OS came with flatpak, but no Flatpak packages preinstalled. Now, Zorin OS Pro is almost exclusively Flatpak packages.

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@Aravisian That is not exactly the most encouraging thing to hear. I really don't want to leave ZorinOS, but this seems to only accelerate the lock-down of Linux. Linux used to mean freedom. What is this coming to? Where is this headed? I think I already know but it's not something I want, much less like.

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I wish I could bring a message of hope or encouragement. I have been looking for it, too...
And it is not to be found.

We migrated away from Microsoft due to its control. Frankly, I find Gnome today more controlling.

And while I am on XFCE now and can use it or Cinnamon for a few more years to come, sure, long term, it is looking rather dismal as these desktops are being pushed out by a dominant centralized system being pushed heavily onto us.

When you look at Android; it has a low approval rating among users. It is not intuitive, finding settings to change them is a nightmare. A lot of software can be bundled into it that runs outside of user control. It is easily locked down. Most users find it to be frustrating to deal with, but easy to use for basic functions.
And because dependence has been created for something that is easy to use, but very hard to control, it gained dominance, despite the dismal rating.

We see this same trend taking hold at Microsoft and has been for a long time at Apple.
We see it just as strongly in GnuLinux, now.
A lot of end users accept the loss of control to gain status, convenience or just to meet the needs of daily living; they decide that they probably have better things to worry about in their lives than to fight this losing battle.
Or, simply do not care. They want to have ease and convenience and control for them, is a small price to pay.

What I observe is that these things do meet resistance. Some do get delayed or prevented - for now. But most get pushed through, anyway. Your example of SystemD is one.
Mostly, the resistance is ignored.

I do not think our voices are enough.

Microsoft charges users for Windows OS, but calls it "Free cost".
This model of "Free but not free" is our biggest problem.
For a long time, GnuLinux has also been free cost. The End User is not the customer, just like they are not with Google or Facebook.
In wanting to tighten our pocketbooks, we set the stage to have the ropes tightened onto us.

Someone else is the paying customer. Corporate interests, or other... and they are the influence that gets the attention.

Microsoft is less controlling today, then Gnome, because the End User is still the source of their revenue. But they are actively working to change that model.

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@Aravisian Your words are a beacon of inspiration. :sweat_smile:
Like you, I will keep trying. Even if it ends up being just me and a few others. I agree with you on Android and man, it sucks. lol. It's just frustrating to see all this happen in real time.

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What I have been doing is learning the inner workings to make sure I have Mine, even if others don't.
For example, I am on "Zorin OS" now. It is not Lite, but it is not Core, either. I removed the Desktop and supplied my own, based loosely on XFCE.
I have removed LibAdwaita entirely. Not patched, not worked around... it is not on my system.
If there is software that depends on it that I need, I remove that dependency from the software prior to installing. If it is so tightly bundled that the dependency cannot be removed, I created a toolkit that I inject that replaces LibAdwaita, compile that into that software and can then run it.

In so doing, I have bought myself some time. I will have mine a bit longer than many others.
But eventually, I will hit the wall, too. There will be too much sourcing and reprogramming for one person to keep up with. I will get tired of it, lack time for it.

You can do the same. Build yourself an off ramp. Just know, eventually... our builds will be rendered incompatible with "modern" systems in the future.

But you can see how and why I so blantantly speak out as I do, now. I do not let anyone call my concerns "whining".
And I will not stop speaking out, hoping that eventually, others will catch on and realize just what they have been tolerating and finally stand with me.
I already know I am not alone, there are many others. I just fear we remain too few.

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@Aravisian Nice to know there are others besides myself. But I do anticipate hitting a wall, as you say. It's a lot to do on your own, or even with a few.

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While I do not use Cosmic, I think that as a D.E. it is representative of a rather shiny beacon.
This was developed as a direct response to the limitations and controls LibAdwaita brought: In which LibAdwaita overrides User Settings and injects its own which it keeps Hidden from user access or control.

These developers did not just accept it or roll over and take defeat. I think it is a strong testament that we have been pushed too far. And GnuLinux Developers, Unlike Microsoft ones, can take a stand - and apparently, absolutely will do so.

There is still hope...

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I will be checking that out. I'm not ready to give up just yet. :smiling_face_with_sunglasses:

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I wouldn't call it ''evil''. And: SystemD is not an Init System. An Init System is Part of SystemD.

Don't understand me wrong: It is surely not perfect. But to go so far to call it evil is in my Opinion too much.

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To be "Evil" requires directed intent of malice. Which I agree that SystemD lacks.

Calling it "evil" is an emotional argument, rather than a meritous one.
However, I personally find it understandable for a user to summarize the feeling.

SystemD is not an init system and that is the beginning of its problems. A way to justify calling it "evil" would be to focus on the harm that it unnecessarily introduces. Since SystemD, perfect or imperfect, unnecessarily introduces a lot of harm - a person may call it "evil" out of simplicity; reducing a long tirade into one charged word.

We cannot and should not ignore the things that are pushed onto us that bring harm, explaining it away with a hand wave of "Oh, well... it's not perfect, but..."

SystemD is not just imperfect. It is terrible.
SystemD is the largest culprit in Suspend/Hibernate and resume bugs. And... these are among the most common on the forum.

Pipewire has been replacing PulseAudio in order to try to resolve its many issues; yet the entire thing is a complex web of Alsa, Pulse, SystemD, all working together and against each other. Sorting out something as user direct as Sound and Playback has become like pulling teeth.

Because SystemD is not an Init program, it is wide branching into services which are heavy in dependency and entangled.
Untangling these to troubleshoot the core cause of an issue is a nightmare. We often narrow down to quick fixes and workarounds - because we are obligated to work around the base SystemD instead of merely fixing or replacing that.
From our perspective as troubleshooters, SystemD complicates and disrupts a great deal of troubleshooting, without ever being named or recognized during the process.

On Security: SystemD is a ticking time bomb.
A standard Init system like SysV is small. It is more like a starter motor in a car. It is a few hundred to maybe a couple thousand lines of code.
The attack surface on it is just as small and very easy to monitor.
SystemD on the other hand... has millions of lines of code. It certainly cannot be audited in an emergency. It manages complex configurations, network sockets, USB states, memory handling and all simultaneously.
PID 1 must run with absolute unrestricted root privileges and having this nested within SystemD's complexity is the most tempting, delicious tasty snack an attack vector could ever hope for with wide large dreamy eyes.
Calling SystemD "evil", you may question. Calling what a hacker could do with it - that is much harder to question.

And what is the blast radius of all of the above?

Systems that are portable and modular can be systemically traced, narrowed down and repaired. But SystemD is not modular - it is tightly and heavily integrated. So through any of the above, you end up chasing and eliminating ghosts instead of moving right to the problem area.
Worse, a bug in a secondary system affects the Core Components. In a modular system, if a component breaks, everything else is still working. You can stand on solid ground and repair the one component.
With SystemD, a component breaking can cascade across multiple systems, often rendering the entire system unusable. Repairs must be done using tedious Space walks from outside of the system.

That is a terrible system. This is not an emotional argument from a traditionalist, easily dismissed as bias.
These are fundamental failures of a servicing system that far outreached its scope and created a mess of problems for everyone, unnecessarily and avoidably - all to see if running simultaneous services would allow for a faster boot time.

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I would add here another Point: Because SystemD is widespread, it is an Attack Target alone because of that.

This is for me a Main Point here. SystemD is like a Software Suite or a Bundle that includes a lot of Modules. But: It isn't really modular. You can replace some Things, yes. But it isn't so, that You could take out Module A and C and keep B and D. That is not how it works - and it isn't the Intention.

Can You critize that? Sure. I do, too. To have it more modular would be a good Thing.

And when someone don't like it at all, it is totally fine to say that. But call it ''evil'' ... maybe it's a Language Thing but I don't find that appropriate. It sound like, that it wants to run intentionally bad (to be in Context).

I don't know if Bugfixing is still a Point with SystemD. I've read in the Past that they closed Bug Reports even then, when they are not solved simply because of no Efforts to fix it? Do they still do that?

I really find this a fair point.
To be Evil implies the intent of Malice. I do not think that Poettering had any such thing.
Instead, he viewed solving a problem in an unconventional way. And in society, this is more often praised.
Being unconventional alone is not enough to promise a good result, however. It is neutral and can produce a poor result, too.

Let me make a point, here.
You can question this word. I can question yours just as validly.
To say, "Sure, it is not perfect...But... " comes across as saying, "Get over it. Just accept it."
Maybe that is not how you mean it. Maybe the O.P. does not mean to imply intent of malice, but instead frustration of hitting the SystemD impermeable wall.

Because SystemD is so core, centralized and critical, it generates a large number of bug reports - for a small team to review. This leads to aggressiveness in closing reports. I would not say it is that they do not care or do not fix - but a combination of being overworked, idealized in their view of how SystemD should work and being critical of bugs that question the pervasive premise of SystemD.
"It's not a bug, it's a feature" comes to mind.

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@Ponce-De-Leon Well this is where people can respectfully disagree. I definitely would call it evil. Evil always starts out small and benign. It looks harmless and innocent. Always with noble justification and intentions. That human history. Evil never starts out blatantly obvious. But systemd lays out a potential framework to do more. Android is a great example. It started out open and free (freedom). Every move was innocent and to improve some function or performance. Every change was harmless in and of themselves. Fast forward a few years the collective changes are now culminated to Google will Lock-down Android more so by next year. That was not overnight. That was years in the making. System D has set the stage to do more like Windows. Age verification field already set. Flatpak roadmap is to only run on systemD distros. Flatpak being developed by former Windows/Redhat employee. run0 to soon replace sudo to no longer allow admin rights to end user. That's coming soon. There is a lot more than that.... but only if people take off their blinders and are willing to pay attention.

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I also think where the "evil" comes in is RedHat who were pushing for all other distributions to adopt it. I like the scrolling install screens of Artix with a still shot of Moebius from "The Matrix" with him 'saying' "Did you know systemd is an agent?"

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Well, it was neccessary. That is a Law Thing. And when a Developer wants offer their System in a Country with that, it needs to have Age Verification. Yes, the developer can say No and don't offer it. But when the Decision is to offer it, the Consequances is to bring Age Verification.

And this Line in an already existing SystemD Module (only to say that for People who wonder: This Module is not installed on Zorin) can be used for it - but You don't have to use it. It is for the Case it is needed. That the Laws now seems to change and exclude Linux - at least in some Regions - doesn't mean that it disappears entirely.

As I already said: This is only a first Idea with Flatpak Next.

And what is the Problem with that the Developer worked once for Windows and RedHat? When You expect that every Programmer in Open Source and Linux never had to work for a Company ... then don't use Technology.

But I didn't used a ''But'' in this Relation. The But was for using the Word ''evil''. that it isn't perfect stands for its own. there is no ''But''. It is not perfect. Well, Perfection is an Illusion. So, maybe saying that You could call it perfect because it runs so well would be more appropriate in the Usage.

In any Way, this isn't the Case. And I would highly doubt that it will be in the Future. Improving Software is something for any Software - and of Course for SystemD, too. And naming Stuff that doesn't work is right of Course and should be done.

Then it seems like systemd is "obeying in advance," which is a red flag.

Then systemd is participating in the pre-emptive, slow erosion of the freedoms of Linux even before relevant laws exist; I dunno, seems pretty evil.

Where did you even begin to learn that skillset? I can tell you that, compared to that, college-level computer science barely scratches the surface on Linux, at least where I studied.

Even in Schools it is just "mentioned" in passing - and remember a lot of Educational institutions (like the one where I was based but not employed by them) were striving for Microsoft Gold Standard (= MS BS)

No, that hasn't anything to do with obeying. Linux is not above the Law.

And SystemD did that because of the Law Situation at this Time. And it didn't implemented Age Verification. It implemented a Line in a Module what an OS Developer can use for implementing Age Verification if needed. That is a Difference.

When You want offer an OS in a Country what has an Age Verification Law, You have to follow the Law to offer it there. Again: Linux is not above the Law.

Yes, You can critize the Law. You can scream against it. Protest. Demontrate aginst it. But saying ''I don't like this Law'' and simply ignoring it and do what You want is not the Way that works. When we begin to ignore Laws because we don't like them, it might take 2 Hours and this World will become a real Moloch.

That wasn't clear that there will come something like that. At this Time, there was no Exclusion. And You have to prepare for this. And Age Verification isn't only an american Thing. And the glorious U, S and A are not the only Country in the World (even when some American's have the Impression that it is).

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This is worth repeating.
Disagreement with a law is not grounds to ignore the law.

Protesting and criticizing the harmful effects of the California legislation had the exact effect of the lawmakers seeking to mitigate the damage.

Laws being disagreed with and disregarded is a large part of why we are in the boat that we are in now.

That said: The ZorinGroup released a statement in which they said that they would not adhere to the California law. I can easily see how this can give the impression of the ZorinGroup as the heroic rebels and the systemD devs as the obedient villain.

The ZorinGroup stated a reason: They are not subject to California Law.
This is true and proper - as a citizen of the USA, I am not subject to Italian Laws, for example.
The ZorinGroup only needs to consider Zorin OS.
SystemD is not a distro. It is used in a very large number of distributions and to them, it was not their place to make that choice for all other distros. In order to keep the choice open and available, they set a framework in place that allows all distromakers the choice. Because many distromakers may indeed be subject to local or regional laws.
That is a stark difference. SystemD did not enforce age verification.

It is established that if I disagree with Ponce De Leon, I will speak up.
So, we know this statement is due to the merit and rational points, not due to forum camaraderie.
And it is established where I stand in regards to SystemD, too.

It is being eyed by many nations.
But it is also interesting that recent events have been productive in bringing scrutiny to accepted distaste.
In many countries, competing markets to Big Tech are being viewed more favorably, given a chance that otherwise not have been given - in favor of freedom and privacy.
Power grabbing and surveillance have motivated a shift. This can allow a more free market and more competition.
In This Regard - you can see where ChronosJ is coming from.

From ChronosJ's perspective, seeing SystemD capitulate so quickly was damaging to the momentum of that shift.
With a grounded perspective, we can admit that they were not fully capitulating and that in many ways, they were doing something that protects others.
But on the other hand - they were pandering to a powergrab, too.

With this, we can see it is like a gem. Multi-faceted.

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