Linux vs. Windows

I think a paying user base is more likely to have input heard than a non-paying one. Who is paying Gnome?
It's not us, the ones they stopped listening to years ago.

Everything else you said I agree with 100%.

2 Likes

[quote="Aravisian, post:15, topic:9584"]
I think a paying user base is more likely to have input heard than a non-paying one.

I think that depends on the project leaders willingness to accept and use community feedback to improve the product. Gnome is funded by donation from individuals and companies.

1 Like

Who are these individuals and companies? I think... this information is crucial. Whose interests are involved, here?
Canonical is one.......

1 Like

Microsoft would be another. In secret, trying to dismanstle FOSS, and monitize it, and take control, because thats what corporations like them do.

2 Likes

The Gnome Foundation lists the following companies as contributors:

  • Canonical
  • Debian
  • Endless
  • Google
  • Red Hat
  • Sugar Labs
  • SUSE
  • The Document Foundation
  • System76

Individuals, I have no idea. Gnome Foundation members are obviously contributors, but I assume that there are others as well.

3 Likes

I never had a problem paying, I started in Linux 20 years ago using Linspire, Xandros and some others. Back then there wasn't a download perse you went to the store and buy the disks. I never much understood this attitude of I deserve not to pay for anything and I demand you give me what I want, when I want it. That's not how life works. Even today Linspire is still around and yes, it is a commercial product.

The cost doesn't even have to be that much for these companies to make money. Take Thunderbird for example. I used to use it as my daily email client, I switched to exchange and started using Outlook. Now here I am 5 years later deciding I wanted to use TB again. I fire it up, and it's like I'm transported back in time. 5 years later TB is a mess, still no exchange support, it's signature handling hasn't changed and kept up, the UI still no redesign, still have to go in and put in a fix for bitmap font handling and on and on it goes. Why? It's unusable for me, so I put a VB on my setup to fire up Win10 and I have my Outlook. I'd sooner pay them $20, or even $40 and have an up to date email client that handles exchange. How in 2021 when there are countless of other clients handling exchange is it that TB still doesn't? It's not like MS is keeping the code a secret, it isn't any more.

As for big companies coming in, Google is already here as is MS. MS created their own Linux I believe it is for server use. What do people think the kernel in Chromebook is? It's the Linux kernel, it used to be based off of Ubuntu. That ship has sailed, they're already here.

I'm not a tinkerer any more, I like to customize my setup and I want things to just work. I've never been a big CLI person either, always preferred the GUI. And Gnome is not a user friendly DE and I really wish distro's would stop using it. But I digress.. Google has figured this out with Chromebook, they are going after the everyday user, not the tinkerer. It's the same with MS and Apple. Every day people want to login and just have things work, they don't want to have to change 10 lines of code in 10 different places. Know your end user, and they do. Look at any Linux forum and you see the so called "Linux elitist" doing everything they can to stifle Linux for the everyday user.

There are several things that cause issues, here's a couple of them besides the email issue above. Wifi support and why all the drivers are just not included. I have a wifi dongle that I can't use until I have internet to download the driver and install it, why??? It just works on Windows. And I see these complaints across distro forums. with various wifi. We're in 2021 not 2011, these issues should not exist at this point.

Printers and scanners. Here I am 20 years later and still scanning is primitive using Xsane. The GUI looks like something from 1998 and barely works. There are several printer companies that supply the drivers, yet we still have no real software that uses any of them appropriately. On Windows I open my Brother software and can print or scan with ease. One more reason I have a VB setup for scanning in documents because it is a complete mess to do in Linux. This is essential for people and yet here I am all the years later looking at something exactly the same decades later. Why?

Instead of people developing yet another mp3 player, why not come out with something that actually competes with those paid Windows programs. I use Adobe Acrobat pro to edit and create pdf's, there is really nothing in the Linux world. Master pdf is okay, but like most things over complicated for what it is. People are worried about major companies coming in, but they're the ones that are developing things that people actually need.

If people want Linux to take off, it's always been the same thing. There needs to be incentive for people do it and that ladies and gentlemen is money and having decent programs. The programs can't look like they were thrown together by some HS computer class for a project either.

5 Likes

The problem with Linux/Desktop is that Linux/Desktop is half baked.

Whatever we may think about Microsoft, Apple and Google as businesses, the simple fact is that Microsoft's Windows, Apple's macOS and iOS and Google's Android and Chome set a higher standard in terms of user interface and consumer usability than Linux/Desktop. Windows, macOS, iOS, Android and Chrome work out-of-the-box -- turn on the device, the hardware clicks in during the boot process, the OS loads and (99% of the time) everything just works. That is what the consumer market expects, and, to be blunt, that is what the consumer market deserves.

Linux/Desktop just doesn't meet that standard [FN1], as any of us who have struggled with hardware or software issues, or have helped consumers adapt to Linux, know full well. Linux/Desktop stumbles over hardware compatibility far too often, has an incomplete, often inconsistent GUI [FN2] that sometimes fails to do basic tasks (e.g. Zorin's inability to remove LibreOffice through the Software Center), and flunks the "intuitive and functional" test in too many situations. [FN3]

I've been thinking about this, on and off, for many years, in large part because I have been, at various times and for various reasons, frustrated with Linux/Desktop's funkiness. I agree with Linus Torvalds' observation that Linux/Desktop will not become successful in the consumer market unless and until the consumer development community has the self-discipline to focus on a handful of DE's and develops those DE's to as high a standard of design and functionality as Windows, macOS, iOS, Android and Chrome.

What is true of Linux/Desktop is also true of Linux apps. With the exception of a few major apps (e.g. LibreOffice, a product of The Document Foundation, developed by paid professionals for the most part), Linux/Desktop apps are often idiosyncratic, narrow-purpose and incomplete [FN3], in large part because, as @davidb_sk put it: "For many coders who work with Linux and Linux distros, the interest is simply just working the code and making something for either themselves or themselves and others with similar needs/desires."

Dealing with Linux/Desktop applications is like dealing with a time warp. @DeanG summed up the frustrations well, I think. His comment immediately above is worth reading, because he is, as I am, a long-time Linux/Desktop user who is frustrated with the state of Linux/Desktop.

In short, for consumer users and potential adopters, Linux/Desktop is often, well, a mess. As @Fuchiii put it: "Users install Linux, then having problems they don't get solved. After that instead of buying pro, leaving Linux, resigned."

Will charging for Linux/Desktop and the essential apps help bring Linux/Desktop up to a higher standard for consumer users? Possibly, because an income stream would facilitate professional, full-time, dedicated development, but I'm not optimistic that paid developers will make much difference. What is needed, it seems to me, is across-the-board laser-focused determination to bring Linux/Desktop -- all of the major distros, all of the major apps -- up to the standard of Windows, macOS, iOS, Android and Chrome. Half-baked doesn't cut it.

==============
[FN1] The "just works" standard isn't a significant factor in the business/enterprise market because beusiness/enterprise users are either skilled (e.g. Linux experts who administer and maintain servers) or can depend on competent IT staff to maintain Linux/Desktop throughout the business/enterprise. But I think that it is a problem in the consumer market.

[FN2] I have no interest in reopening the longstanding GUI versus CLI argument, other than to note that Windows, macOS, iOS, Android and Chrome all have fully developed CLI and fully developed GUI interfaces, but Linux/Desktop does not. In the former operating systems, it is possible for a user to do almost anything using the GUI (90%+ of the users of those operating systems don't know that the operating systems have a CLI and have no reason to know), but in Linux/Desktop that is not yet the case. Too often, Linux/Desktop users do not have the choice to use GUI to accomplish what needs to be done because the GUI has not developed to the point where a choice is possible.

[FN3] Linux doesn't have those problems in the business/enterprise market. Linux almost never has hardware incompatibilities with server hardware (server hardware, in marked contrast to consumer hardware, is uncomplicated and relatively standard), Linux server builds (e.g. Red Hat Enterprise Server, SUSE Linux Enterprise, Ubuntu Server) are professionally designed and well adapted for administering, maintaining and securing servers at whatever scale, and software used in the business/enterprise market (e.g. cloud and multi-cloud management software) is also professionally developed and maintained.

5 Likes

I like you DeanG, I understand you, and I agree with you. Its time for things to change in Linux. I think we all agree, continuing the status quo is not going to produce any results. A good scientist doesn't keep repeating the same experiment over and over expecting different results.

2 Likes

Honestly... I felt this way about a lot of apps on Windows, as well.
And perusing the Windows help Forums yields just as much frustration, not just in having the issues with apps, but also in finding answers or solutions.

It's a big part of why I wanted away from Windows. I am not a Windows hater or conspiracist.
But for the costs of using Windows, I would expect better.

From what I can tell, while very controlling and proprietary, Apply / Mac would be a candidate of apps that actually are fully fleshed and work.

Let's face it- the frustrated Linux users didn't jump the Mac and MS ships for nothing.

1 Like

If you are satisfied with the state of Linux/Desktop as it is, then that's fine with me. I'm not. I think that Linux recreates the state of Windows circa 2002.

1 Like

And once again, I also have to agree with Tom as well. While I have already said my piece on this many of times, I also appreciate hearing from Dean and Tom as well. Truth is, we pretty much all believe the same way, we just come from different levels of experience with Linux is all.

Yeah, if I had my way, everything in Linux would be done by GUI. I of course would never force that choice on anyone, as that goes against FOSS. I simply would like to have that as a choice, where everything can be done in GUI.

And yes, I too would like things to just work on Linux. I mean, how much further proof do you need, when you see how many support requests we get per day, from users who state their hardware is not working on Linux, yet works perfectly fine with Windows.

That type of stuff is very frustrating for me, and I know its frustrating for other's. And its absolutely ridiculous that we have to deal with this stuff in 2021, soon to be 2022. Not every computer user is an IT professional, and unfortunately, Linux is designed in such a way, to expect everyone to be to use it.

My family member just told me something today that opened my eyes, and even scared me a bit. Let me lay down the context a bit so you understand where the convo was coming from.

I heard that Windows7 support was ending, should I upgrade to Windows10? No you should not, Windows10 is pure evil, and will spy on you, our network, steal everything we got from us, mine our data, and sell it to other's. Yikes, I don't want that! Is there some other OS we can use?

Yes, Linux!

Fast forward to today, issues with getting a game going. Family member says, can you help me with this, the game is chugging at like 1 frame per second, I don't know how to fix it. I figured it was PROTON related for the most part, and it was.

Game is also a little too high in requirements for that old computer I gave them too but it shouldn't be doing 1 frame per second. I fixed it by forcing a PROTON version 6. The game is getting about maybe 25 frames per second now.

Game doesn't want to load in full screen either, it only wants to run in expanded window mode, another issue. Couldn't find a working solution to the game refusing to run in full screen mode, so we found a working around, using the TV settings to zoom in, that way the top bar don't burn in on the plasma screen.

My family member then said, if you were not around, I would not have stuck with computers. I would not have bought a new computer, and I wouldn't have installed Linux, I don't even know how to install an OS. So do you see the point of what my family member is saying?

They are so computer illiterate that all these problems would prevent further computer use for them. They most certainly couldn't handle Linux on their own without me. I am what keeps their computer going, and I am doing my best.

A new computer is really needed, its why I got a new computer. And that is a plan in the works for the future. But with how things are in the tech shortage, and the higher costs of computers, they are dealing with my old computer's hardware limmitations until a new computer can be purchased.

4 Likes

I am saying I do not find it worse than Windows in my comparison.

I think if I was satisfied, I wouldn't rant in other threads or start threads like this one.
(edited, moved to PM)

1 Like

How is that any different from Windows? I agree that Gaming is better supported on Windows... But if a person has no idea what to do, cannot even install an OS, then Windows is too complicated, too.(edited)

As Kuiper said above: Things of value take Effort.

People today want effortless for Free. They think "I don't know how" is a valid excuse to be dismissive.(edited)

(EDIT: My mood is far from sanguine today and while I am aware of it and trying to leave the bad mood off the forum, I realize I am failing.)

2 Likes

Well, i think first at all the computer comes with windows. So u dont have to install it. Most people doesnt reinstall OS in the computers life...

But, more important, as many people here told, is Hardwaresupport.
If i start windows, with my Hardware, everything is working out of the box - and well this is working in Zorin OS, too. One reason i like Zorin.

In fact, it`s a problem, that OEM Computers and laptops are made for windows, so they just fit to the OS :confused:

My expierience right now is, that laptops most time working fine with linux, while my desktops always had problems trying different Linux-Distributions.

3 Likes

You have a point. I dunno... I had to wipe and reload Windows many times on my own.

Same. I have no sound issues or various other hardware issues some post on the forum seeking help with. Mic, Speakers, bluetooth, zoom, youtube, literally everything works on all of the computers in the house.
Either the majority of us have no problems; or I have been very lucky,
But given the sheer volume of Zorin OS users compared against how many seek help on the forum, I would suggest it is the former.

4 Likes

I don't think anyone is saying there are not issues with Windows or even programs run in Windows. There will always be issues with something.

The main issue for me is that Linux programs haven't kept up with the times, they're still living in yesteryear. They don't even have basic functions that their Windows counterparts have. See my TB example above and if that isn't good use Evolution which does have exchange support. Evolution, is still using old exchange coding ( it took it 2 days to sync the email) and the UI is a horrid mess. So not only is it outdated, it's not even doing the basics. Yet, I fire up Outlook and it just works. Does it sometimes have issues or do the MS updates wreck my nerves? Yes, but that doesn't negate the fact it does the basics .

I remember years ago people would moan and whine that printer drivers weren't available. Fast forward to today and most every company makes a driver for their printers in Linux. And what has happened? Nothing. Nothing has happened. Like I stated above nobody has made any attempt at giving decent software for the driver they all complained they wanted. So where's the incentive in companies making drivers for Linux when nobody does anything with them?

For as much time as some of these distro's spend configuring Gnome with all their logo's and branding. Maybe use different DE's that customizing is easier, and take all that free time in developing a nice printer/scanner center with the drivers available, kind of like the Brother Utilities manager.

Putting in the drivers needed for hardware wouldn't increase the size of the distro file that much either. But yet it still isn't being done.

It's kind of humorous how a company will run all their servers on Linux, yet all their employees desktops are running Windows. At a certain point, one needs to ask themselves why that is.

If running software that is half baked, doesn't always do the basics and someone is happy with it, that's fine. But that isn't the rest of population and it certainly isn't the typical end user.

I didn't jump to Windows because of problems with software, I came to Linux because it is a more secure system, and I could make my desktop look like I wanted it to. Heck, you can change Windows desktop easier and with more options than Gnome anymore. I got a virus on my system back in the day, and a friend of mine worked at QVC and set me up with Linux.

3 Likes

yes, well... i am one of them - in August i didnt solve my problems with Zorin on my NVMe. But this could happen in Windows, too.

On my Thinkpad T420 i am very happy with Zorin, and i think the moment i find some time and muse, Iĺl give it a try on my desktop again. Got a few thoughts from the forum here i want to check :slight_smile:

3 Likes

This may be a case of who uses which software. I print only basic documents, so I have no troubles at all on Linux with Printers. Of three printers in the house and shop, all have worked flawlessly on Zorin with no configuration.
I recall many apps on Windows that did not work the way I wanted or needed. On Zorin, most apps I use work as I need.
I find GIMP to be not as good as Photoshop but- It's good enough. I am not workin for Pixar here. Blender? Don't get me started. It's incredible. Blender is a work of art without even making a work of art on it, yet.
Inkscape: There are some Batch Converting features I'd like. But I just open a terminal and throw in a command and it does it.

If there is one thing I can say about Linux use of the Terminal - it opened a world for me.
The terminal is present in Windows, but due to GUI's is deemed unnecessary. The utilitarian POWER of the terminal is neglected in Windows- leaving Windows users conditioned to be dependent on GUI.

And they are.
They resist the terminal not because anything is wrong with it, but because they have no idea what to do with it.
They don't have a choice because they have been taught to choose to neglect that choice.
Linux actually makes that choice present by making it necessary. It teaches us that we are not dumb. We are capable. It teaches us to trust ourselves and believe in ourselves, instead of on the GUI or the Developer or Windows...

2 Likes

What a preach :smiley: Very nice to read.
But..normal user dont want the console. They want the GUI - well.. i dont know how much is the effort to have all in GUI.

Another point i love at Zorin OS - didnt need the console until now. but i can use it.
As i said i think Zorin is on the very right way.

If thats enough to get users changing from Windows..? I dont know.

2 Likes

I think a big part (if not the biggest part) in this is that the majority of people are using webmail (i.e. Gmail or other). This is especially poignant on Linux which only has ~2-3% market share.

I run TB, but even I fire it up less and less, instead using my mobile with protonmail to see if I have anything worth reading on a desktop.

Generally, regard other comments:

There's no money in Linux desktop currently. This is both a good and bad thing. The good - freedom. The bad - maintenance of software.

I wonder what the financial incentives of the Gnome are? Follow the money!

If Linux on the desktop breaks ~ 10% user base, we will all moan (with validity) that the likes of Microsoft/Gnome/Google (whoever) control everything.