I think a paying user base is more likely to have input heard than a non-paying one. Who is paying Gnome?
It's not us, the ones they stopped listening to years ago.
Everything else you said I agree with 100%.
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[quote="Aravisian, post:15, topic:9584"]
I think a paying user base is more likely to have input heard than a non-paying one.
I think that depends on the project leaders willingness to accept and use community feedback to improve the product. Gnome is funded by donation from individuals and companies.
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Who are these individuals and companies? I think... this information is crucial. Whose interests are involved, here?
Canonical is one.......
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Microsoft would be another. In secret, trying to dismanstle FOSS, and monitize it, and take control, because thats what corporations like them do.
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I never had a problem paying, I started in Linux 20 years ago using Linspire, Xandros and some others. Back then there wasn't a download perse you went to the store and buy the disks. I never much understood this attitude of I deserve not to pay for anything and I demand you give me what I want, when I want it. That's not how life works. Even today Linspire is still around and yes, it is a commercial product.
The cost doesn't even have to be that much for these companies to make money. Take Thunderbird for example. I used to use it as my daily email client, I switched to exchange and started using Outlook. Now here I am 5 years later deciding I wanted to use TB again. I fire it up, and it's like I'm transported back in time. 5 years later TB is a mess, still no exchange support, it's signature handling hasn't changed and kept up, the UI still no redesign, still have to go in and put in a fix for bitmap font handling and on and on it goes. Why? It's unusable for me, so I put a VB on my setup to fire up Win10 and I have my Outlook. I'd sooner pay them $20, or even $40 and have an up to date email client that handles exchange. How in 2021 when there are countless of other clients handling exchange is it that TB still doesn't? It's not like MS is keeping the code a secret, it isn't any more.
As for big companies coming in, Google is already here as is MS. MS created their own Linux I believe it is for server use. What do people think the kernel in Chromebook is? It's the Linux kernel, it used to be based off of Ubuntu. That ship has sailed, they're already here.
I'm not a tinkerer any more, I like to customize my setup and I want things to just work. I've never been a big CLI person either, always preferred the GUI. And Gnome is not a user friendly DE and I really wish distro's would stop using it. But I digress.. Google has figured this out with Chromebook, they are going after the everyday user, not the tinkerer. It's the same with MS and Apple. Every day people want to login and just have things work, they don't want to have to change 10 lines of code in 10 different places. Know your end user, and they do. Look at any Linux forum and you see the so called "Linux elitist" doing everything they can to stifle Linux for the everyday user.
There are several things that cause issues, here's a couple of them besides the email issue above. Wifi support and why all the drivers are just not included. I have a wifi dongle that I can't use until I have internet to download the driver and install it, why??? It just works on Windows. And I see these complaints across distro forums. with various wifi. We're in 2021 not 2011, these issues should not exist at this point.
Printers and scanners. Here I am 20 years later and still scanning is primitive using Xsane. The GUI looks like something from 1998 and barely works. There are several printer companies that supply the drivers, yet we still have no real software that uses any of them appropriately. On Windows I open my Brother software and can print or scan with ease. One more reason I have a VB setup for scanning in documents because it is a complete mess to do in Linux. This is essential for people and yet here I am all the years later looking at something exactly the same decades later. Why?
Instead of people developing yet another mp3 player, why not come out with something that actually competes with those paid Windows programs. I use Adobe Acrobat pro to edit and create pdf's, there is really nothing in the Linux world. Master pdf is okay, but like most things over complicated for what it is. People are worried about major companies coming in, but they're the ones that are developing things that people actually need.
If people want Linux to take off, it's always been the same thing. There needs to be incentive for people do it and that ladies and gentlemen is money and having decent programs. The programs can't look like they were thrown together by some HS computer class for a project either.
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I like you DeanG, I understand you, and I agree with you. Its time for things to change in Linux. I think we all agree, continuing the status quo is not going to produce any results. A good scientist doesn't keep repeating the same experiment over and over expecting different results.
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Honestly... I felt this way about a lot of apps on Windows, as well.
And perusing the Windows help Forums yields just as much frustration, not just in having the issues with apps, but also in finding answers or solutions.
It's a big part of why I wanted away from Windows. I am not a Windows hater or conspiracist.
But for the costs of using Windows, I would expect better.
From what I can tell, while very controlling and proprietary, Apply / Mac would be a candidate of apps that actually are fully fleshed and work.
Let's face it- the frustrated Linux users didn't jump the Mac and MS ships for nothing.
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And once again, I also have to agree with Tom as well. While I have already said my piece on this many of times, I also appreciate hearing from Dean and Tom as well. Truth is, we pretty much all believe the same way, we just come from different levels of experience with Linux is all.
Yeah, if I had my way, everything in Linux would be done by GUI. I of course would never force that choice on anyone, as that goes against FOSS. I simply would like to have that as a choice, where everything can be done in GUI.
And yes, I too would like things to just work on Linux. I mean, how much further proof do you need, when you see how many support requests we get per day, from users who state their hardware is not working on Linux, yet works perfectly fine with Windows.
That type of stuff is very frustrating for me, and I know its frustrating for other's. And its absolutely ridiculous that we have to deal with this stuff in 2021, soon to be 2022. Not every computer user is an IT professional, and unfortunately, Linux is designed in such a way, to expect everyone to be to use it.
My family member just told me something today that opened my eyes, and even scared me a bit. Let me lay down the context a bit so you understand where the convo was coming from.
I heard that Windows7 support was ending, should I upgrade to Windows10? No you should not, Windows10 is pure evil, and will spy on you, our network, steal everything we got from us, mine our data, and sell it to other's. Yikes, I don't want that! Is there some other OS we can use?
Yes, Linux!
Fast forward to today, issues with getting a game going. Family member says, can you help me with this, the game is chugging at like 1 frame per second, I don't know how to fix it. I figured it was PROTON related for the most part, and it was.
Game is also a little too high in requirements for that old computer I gave them too but it shouldn't be doing 1 frame per second. I fixed it by forcing a PROTON version 6. The game is getting about maybe 25 frames per second now.
Game doesn't want to load in full screen either, it only wants to run in expanded window mode, another issue. Couldn't find a working solution to the game refusing to run in full screen mode, so we found a working around, using the TV settings to zoom in, that way the top bar don't burn in on the plasma screen.
My family member then said, if you were not around, I would not have stuck with computers. I would not have bought a new computer, and I wouldn't have installed Linux, I don't even know how to install an OS. So do you see the point of what my family member is saying?
They are so computer illiterate that all these problems would prevent further computer use for them. They most certainly couldn't handle Linux on their own without me. I am what keeps their computer going, and I am doing my best.
A new computer is really needed, its why I got a new computer. And that is a plan in the works for the future. But with how things are in the tech shortage, and the higher costs of computers, they are dealing with my old computer's hardware limmitations until a new computer can be purchased.
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I am saying I do not find it worse than Windows in my comparison.
I think if I was satisfied, I wouldn't rant in other threads or start threads like this one.
(edited, moved to PM)
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How is that any different from Windows? I agree that Gaming is better supported on Windows... But if a person has no idea what to do, cannot even install an OS, then Windows is too complicated, too.(edited)
As Kuiper said above: Things of value take Effort.
People today want effortless for Free. They think "I don't know how" is a valid excuse to be dismissive.(edited)
(EDIT: My mood is far from sanguine today and while I am aware of it and trying to leave the bad mood off the forum, I realize I am failing.)
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Well, i think first at all the computer comes with windows. So u dont have to install it. Most people doesnt reinstall OS in the computers life...
But, more important, as many people here told, is Hardwaresupport.
If i start windows, with my Hardware, everything is working out of the box - and well this is working in Zorin OS, too. One reason i like Zorin.
In fact, it`s a problem, that OEM Computers and laptops are made for windows, so they just fit to the OS 
My expierience right now is, that laptops most time working fine with linux, while my desktops always had problems trying different Linux-Distributions.
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You have a point. I dunno... I had to wipe and reload Windows many times on my own.
Same. I have no sound issues or various other hardware issues some post on the forum seeking help with. Mic, Speakers, bluetooth, zoom, youtube, literally everything works on all of the computers in the house.
Either the majority of us have no problems; or I have been very lucky,
But given the sheer volume of Zorin OS users compared against how many seek help on the forum, I would suggest it is the former.
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I don't think anyone is saying there are not issues with Windows or even programs run in Windows. There will always be issues with something.
The main issue for me is that Linux programs haven't kept up with the times, they're still living in yesteryear. They don't even have basic functions that their Windows counterparts have. See my TB example above and if that isn't good use Evolution which does have exchange support. Evolution, is still using old exchange coding ( it took it 2 days to sync the email) and the UI is a horrid mess. So not only is it outdated, it's not even doing the basics. Yet, I fire up Outlook and it just works. Does it sometimes have issues or do the MS updates wreck my nerves? Yes, but that doesn't negate the fact it does the basics .
I remember years ago people would moan and whine that printer drivers weren't available. Fast forward to today and most every company makes a driver for their printers in Linux. And what has happened? Nothing. Nothing has happened. Like I stated above nobody has made any attempt at giving decent software for the driver they all complained they wanted. So where's the incentive in companies making drivers for Linux when nobody does anything with them?
For as much time as some of these distro's spend configuring Gnome with all their logo's and branding. Maybe use different DE's that customizing is easier, and take all that free time in developing a nice printer/scanner center with the drivers available, kind of like the Brother Utilities manager.
Putting in the drivers needed for hardware wouldn't increase the size of the distro file that much either. But yet it still isn't being done.
It's kind of humorous how a company will run all their servers on Linux, yet all their employees desktops are running Windows. At a certain point, one needs to ask themselves why that is.
If running software that is half baked, doesn't always do the basics and someone is happy with it, that's fine. But that isn't the rest of population and it certainly isn't the typical end user.
I didn't jump to Windows because of problems with software, I came to Linux because it is a more secure system, and I could make my desktop look like I wanted it to. Heck, you can change Windows desktop easier and with more options than Gnome anymore. I got a virus on my system back in the day, and a friend of mine worked at QVC and set me up with Linux.
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yes, well... i am one of them - in August i didnt solve my problems with Zorin on my NVMe. But this could happen in Windows, too.
On my Thinkpad T420 i am very happy with Zorin, and i think the moment i find some time and muse, Iĺl give it a try on my desktop again. Got a few thoughts from the forum here i want to check 
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This may be a case of who uses which software. I print only basic documents, so I have no troubles at all on Linux with Printers. Of three printers in the house and shop, all have worked flawlessly on Zorin with no configuration.
I recall many apps on Windows that did not work the way I wanted or needed. On Zorin, most apps I use work as I need.
I find GIMP to be not as good as Photoshop but- It's good enough. I am not workin for Pixar here. Blender? Don't get me started. It's incredible. Blender is a work of art without even making a work of art on it, yet.
Inkscape: There are some Batch Converting features I'd like. But I just open a terminal and throw in a command and it does it.
If there is one thing I can say about Linux use of the Terminal - it opened a world for me.
The terminal is present in Windows, but due to GUI's is deemed unnecessary. The utilitarian POWER of the terminal is neglected in Windows- leaving Windows users conditioned to be dependent on GUI.
And they are.
They resist the terminal not because anything is wrong with it, but because they have no idea what to do with it.
They don't have a choice because they have been taught to choose to neglect that choice.
Linux actually makes that choice present by making it necessary. It teaches us that we are not dumb. We are capable. It teaches us to trust ourselves and believe in ourselves, instead of on the GUI or the Developer or Windows...
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What a preach 
Very nice to read.
But..normal user dont want the console. They want the GUI - well.. i dont know how much is the effort to have all in GUI.
Another point i love at Zorin OS - didnt need the console until now. but i can use it.
As i said i think Zorin is on the very right way.
If thats enough to get users changing from Windows..? I dont know.
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I think a big part (if not the biggest part) in this is that the majority of people are using webmail (i.e. Gmail or other). This is especially poignant on Linux which only has ~2-3% market share.
I run TB, but even I fire it up less and less, instead using my mobile with protonmail to see if I have anything worth reading on a desktop.
Generally, regard other comments:
There's no money in Linux desktop currently. This is both a good and bad thing. The good - freedom. The bad - maintenance of software.
I wonder what the financial incentives of the Gnome are? Follow the money!
If Linux on the desktop breaks ~ 10% user base, we will all moan (with validity) that the likes of Microsoft/Gnome/Google (whoever) control everything.
Ah, but what if Gnome deliberately breaks it in the effort to gain more control?
(Libadwaita).
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And that is you. Most people are using their computers for work as I do. I need certain things to work, I'm not just printing the random page.
I don't do much with images, however what I do see in the forums is many people complaining about Gimp, I hear Krita is much better. But I really don't know because it isn't something I do.
I know how to use the terminal and I hate it. I would much rather use a GUI, as do I would gander a guess do the majority of the population. One thing Windows has shown, it doesn't have to be an either or it can be both. Correct, there is a choice in Linux, you can use the terminal or the GUI. The point is that if you want to get users to switch, then a GUI needs to be present. The fact you don't like it and would rather use the terminal, is irrelevant. I have better things to do with my time than learning how to use a particular piece of software in the terminal and reading what I need to enter to get it to do this or that. I get it some people like it, I however at this point do not. I want to open it up, click here or there, save and it be done. Nor would I gander does a company want 50+ employees all sitting at their desk asking everyone what they need to enter to get something to do something. Hence the GUI. Has nothing to do whether or not we are capable, because not everyone is capable. And it isn't actually necessary in Linux any more. I installed several distros and didn't have touch the terminal once. I did, but I didn't have to do so.
Your argument seems to be since everything Linux has is good enough for you, it should be good enough for the typical user. It isn't, because if it was people would be flocking to Linux and they're not. If it was, I wouldn't need to have a VB with Windows 10, and yet here I am with it. I don't understand your subsequent postings considering your first post starting the thread, they are contradictory. You're saying in the beginning we should support Linux to move it forward and be able to get more users, then stating it's good enough.
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Well I'm a firm believer Gnome purposely breaks the extensions when they update or come out with a new release. So that wouldn't surprise me in the least.